On Xbox, 1080p, and the lack of HDMI
By Erik Hanson 
posted Sep 28th 2006 10:35AM
posted Sep 28th 2006 10:35AM
IGN has a summary article on the state of 1080p from Microsoft and their Xbox 360 -- with the planned HD DVD add-on release coming soon, but without any HDMI support. Since many 1080p-capable sets only support that resolution via HDMI cabling, the assumption is that manufacturers like Microsoft would include the connectors so that the sets capable of getting the highest resolutions actually can. But so far, Microsoft is only planning to have VGA or component connectors, and when the studios turn on the Image Constraint Token to disable full resolution via analog outputs, your $200 add-on will be barely more functional than the DVD player inside the console itself.They even fired off a few questions to the folks at Microsoft, asking about these apparent discrepancies. The company's answers included that 1080p will be supported for native games, and others will be scaled up to that resolution, while not answering how the console can even handle that resolution given its hardware (perhaps just upscaling and deinterlacing for everything?). IGN even speculates that this supposed 1080p support is really just a red herring and a smoke screen to take the heat off the upcoming Playstation 3 launch, which will include HDMI and progressive support. Let's hope someone can get their hands on the add-on soon and put it through the ringer so we can actually answer some of these questions rather than just speculating.
From what I have been reading and from what microsoft has said is that 1080p looks great thru analog component cable. They also commented that in some tests on major hd site they have shown component to be a better picture than that of HDMI. I could care less about HDMI.
I agree, I think this is a smoke screen that MS through out there so it could take the attention of f of the PS3. I don't believe MS is being honest with this one and think it would be really stupid for an XBox owner to buy this piece of hardware as it very likely does not do what MS "says" it will do.
At least, the PS3 cures cancer and will end global warming (wait, the latter will be made by pastafarian pirates).
To be honest, 1080p is a way overhyped feature. It's useless for movies, because a good 1080p display will deinterlace properly the 1080i signal and the displayed image will be exactly what it would have been with a 1080p connection. Games is another business, but I don't see many games running natively in 1080p/60 on either platform anyway.
And come on, 720p is already absolutely stunning. If your screen isn't multiplex-theater sized, most people wouldn't see the difference...
The ICT will never be used. There are far too many HDTVs out there that simply do not have HDMI on them. If a company ever started enforcing it, they would more than likely have a class action suit against them.
Posting a "what if" scenerio is just fear mongering at this point. It simply cant, and wont, happen.
And yes, many tests have shown Component does provide a far better picture quality. DVI and HDMI need to go away.
are you guys kidding me??? Your $200 add-on would be barely more functional than a DVD player??? Reagardless of 1080p over component it would still do 1080i and 720p which last time I checked was more than barely functional than a 480p DVD player.
"It's useless for movies, because a good 1080p display will deinterlace properly the 1080i signal"
So what you are saying is, that 1080p is in fact useful, if the display does not properly deinterlace the 1080i signal?
"and when the studios turn on the Image Constraint Token to disable full resolution via analog outputs, your $200 add-on will be barely more functional than the DVD player inside the console itself."
No, if it ever happens it will still need the discs to be authored with the ICT, Every movie up till that day will work fine.
I can't see the movie companies turning it on half way through mass, just to see their sales dive.
All very good and accurate points, Component is more than capable, HDMI is stillbirth and the whole point of the article would seem to be to scare monger
You have been able to upscale your dvds through vga on the Xbox360 since the Spring update.
"your $200 add-on will be barely more functional than the DVD player inside the console itself."
Bull-S*** Give me a break! 720p and 1080i are far superior to 480p DVD and 1080p on a 50" screen doesn't look that much better than 720p. Besides, most of the HDTV's in homes with HDMI do not support 1080p input, so BIG FRICKIN DEAL!!! By the time the studios enable the DRM feature to block 1080p over analog we'll be able to buy a stand-alone HD DVD player for $300. Too bad 99% of us will need to upgrade our HDTV's for it to make any difference in the first place.
Actually, that comment is intended to mean that those without digital outputs (HDMI or DVI with HDCP) will be downconverted over analog to just over 480, which is what regular DVD does. So whether your HDTV can do 720p, 1080i, or 1080p makes no difference, if you have analog output only then your ICT-flagged player won't output much more than standard-def in the first place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_Constraint_Token
Of course, for those of us without HDCP-capable connectors on our TV to begin with, we'll have to buy a new set anyway, but at least if this HD DVD add-on came with HDMI output, then we wouldn't have to buy a set AND a new player, too. So yes, I believe my comment still stands.
I would even go so far to say this could be a good thing to help hd-dvd win the war. In that they will have a much harder time turning on ict now that both bluray devices hdmi its pretty much set in stone they will and since they do some extra copy protection with bd+ you can be assured as soon as they can they will turn on ict.
hd-dvd will have a much harder time with the 360 (which will be the majority of hd-dvd players for a while once it launches) turning it on since the 360 addon cant support it.
It could be a "this one has crappy copy protection and this one doesnt" deal and we all know how much everybody loves copy protection and i really think it would sway the masses to hd-dvd (assuming what i said above comes to fruition)
I have a 46' Sony Projection that can do 1080i almost perfect. its about 1.5 yrs old and it does not have HDMI. I cant even do 1080p so HDMI is useless to me. But does 1080p make that much of a noticeable difference then 1080i? I seriously doubt it. Unless you have like a 65 tv. Also, why would Microsoft turn on the Image Constraint Token to DOWNSAMPLE from HD quality to DVD quality on a HD-DVD. PLAYER? We all know 1080i is far better looking then 420p.
First, There is no such thing as 420p. It is 480p. And as far as the difference b/w 1080i and 1080p, come on, look at the difference b/w 480i & 480p. It is noticeable. Now imagine more than double that difference.
Why are you using 1080i. Will your set not do 720p. Do you know the difference b/w interlaced and progressive.
Lets remember that the 1080p functionality is separate from the HD-DVD add on. 1080p will be enabled on all Xbox 360's via an update whether or not you have purchased the HD-DVD add on.
Microsoft has stated the Xbox can output Movies and Games in 1080p natively. Games can be natively output in 1080p if they are created 1080p native. Movies also can be output in 1080p via component and VGA cables.
So MS has covered their ass on this one just fine. Unfortunately there are other players that effect whether or not the add on drive will be a viable solution for some folks. You must have a TV that takes VGA or Component input at 1080p. If it doesn't...oh well then you'll just enjoy 1080i and 720p. No big deal.
The Movie industry hopefully will play fair and not enable the Image Constraint Token at all. They have informally pledged to do so till at least 2010-2012. So I think it's safe to say that the HD-DVD add on will be just fine for the next 4-6 years in every aspect other than producing a digital output (HDMI).
Component is capable of delivering just as good an image as HDMI. Unfortunately some Television manufacturers implementation of these formats varies. Thus some TV sets produce better results with one or the other cable. But this has more to do with the manufacturer and the TV set than it does with the cable.
Now HDMI 1.3 should be technically more capable than component cables which it's predecessor could not boast in. But of course there aren't really any TV's out yet that will take advantage of HDMI 1.3.
Has there been any mention yet whether 1080p movies streamed through Media Center will be native? I would assume so, but I'd be interested to hear for sure one way or another.
Mauricio:s ICT isn't a MS choice. All HD-DVD players must support/enforce ICT. So far, however, no discs have been authored with the ICT flag set.
All: It's not just about 1080p. Once ICT is enabled, component output will be restricted to 480p (SD) resolutions. HDMI is absolutely necessary if/when ICT is enabled.
Of course, if you already own a 360, spending $200 isn't too shabby even if ICT is enforced in a few years. It looks like it'll atleast be 2010 or 2012 until it's widely used, if ever. $200 for 4-6 years of HD-DVD is fantastic.
I do wonder, though. Once component capture cards fall into the consumer price range, if the studios will go RIAA on us and immediately start shipping ICT titles the next week. There's no technical reason for those cards to cost the $900 to $1k they do now, it's just lack of demand. There's also the chance that people will go Do-It-Yourself and build a low-cost board for themselves with schematics and such posted online. Heck, once I have some free time I'm planning on building a DVI (non-HDCP)/Component -> H.256 device for my HTPC (purpose being to record E* out the box). Not too hard a project, esp. with prior experience in PCB and digital design. Component is still the easy way to pirate hi-def disc; much simplier than cracking AACS and/or HDCP. I think the studios are very serious about ICT for this reason, and my gut feeling is that it'll be sooner rather than later. Stupidity > $$$. The RIAA has lost more money alienating consumers than they lost via piracy, I imagine the MPAA will be as stupid in the long run.
i agree its great to have a choice....my grievance with this article is that IGN has always had something against MS and the xbox. It is the same with G4 they always put MS in a negative light. All i know is both companies have done stellar in the past and MS is doing great now. We just have to wait and see how the PS3 plays out. ooo and dont forget to give Wii some love its going to be such a fun console im pumped to see how it all plays out
How long do you think it will take for someone to mod this thing for use with a PC? If possible, I wonder if an HDCP DVI/HDMI video card would output the HD signal properly. The real question is if MS can sell this thing for $200, why can't some Asian tech company mass produce an HD-DVD read only drive for the PC at this price point?
"How long do you think it will take for someone to mod this thing for use with a PC?"
The problem is that the HD-DVD drive add-on is basically just the drive in a shell, with minimal hardware. They're basically planning on streaming the encrypted video over the USB connection into the 360, and using the processing power of the console to do the conversion to video output. That's why the price is so much cheaper than a standalone player.
Why aren't the drives available for a PC yet? Probably two reasons. First, the personal electronics manufacturers are probably snatching them up as fast as they can be produced to go into standalone players. Second, they'd be useless without drivers and either decoder cards (like early DVD drives) or decoding software, which probably aren't ready yet.
We probably won't see them widely available for PCs until they get a HD-DVD burner and blank media available - until that point there's not going to be any huge demand for PC drives except for theater-PCs, which isn't that big of a market yet.
The lack of HDMI on the xbox 360 has been the killer for me ever since it was first announced. I bought a Mitsubishi tv that, unbeknownst to me at the time, will not accept any progressive signal above 480p from an analog input. The advertised ability to display 720p for the set only pertains to the digital input (and it really doesn't display 720p, just converts the signal to 1080i internally). As much as this pisses me off, I couldn't bring myself to return the set as I love it for so many other reasons. Until the 360 has an hdmi input (720p -> 1080i is still much better than 480p) I won't buy one. I think, however, that the lack of outcry from mits. tv owners (one of the fastest sellers at places like Fry's) speaks to the general publics lack of caring about this situation. My friends wanted to play Halo 2 on their xbox on a similar mits. tv and it wouldn't go above 480p...so they just assumed that they had configured it wrong and let it drop.
Chris
Look people, there's nothing wrong with HDMI. It's uncompressed digital, inherently better than analog component. If your set displays component better, it's screwing up the HDMI. End of discussion.
That said, there's nothing wrong with watching HD movies over component either, even in 1080i. With good cables, the picture is fine. Most decent TVs will retrieve the original 24p signal from a 30i source anyway, so 1080p support benefits games, not so much movies.
As for the ICT - if you want to buy into HD-DVD today, there's no cheaper way (if you own a 360) than this add-on. The money you save today over an HDMI-capable player will easily pay for a new & better HDMI player in 4-5 years, when/if they enable ICT. Of course, many people would say you should wait anyway...
What I really wish IGN would have confirmed is the not so obvious answer to this question:
Will the Xbox 360 1080p update allow for normal everyday DVD movies to be up-converted to 720p or 1080i?
The whole 1080p debate is quite silly and only us early adopters even care...as well as HDMI vs Component. TV sets with 1080p capabilities number in the single digit percentages.
It's amazing at how successful Sony has been in undermining 720p and 1080i to promote the PS3. These formats are adopted by every HD TV broadcast whether it be over the air, Satellite or Cable. Yet somehow Sony has found it fit to convince Joe average consumer that these standards...recognized by the ATSC as High Definition signals...are not really "True HD". If this line of logic were to be followed then one must assume that all HDTV broadcast over the air, Cable or Satellite are all rubbish and not good enough to compare to "True HD...1080p". Such BS. When Sony announced the $500 PS3 would not have HDMI...they themselves contradicted their previous statements about 720p and 1080i and stated that HDMI was not necessary and that most people would never tell the difference. This was a brief glimpse of truth amongst all the hype Sony was trying to build for the PS3 in its attempts to differentiate the PS3 from the Xbox 360.
This is such an amazing disservice to consumers for Sony to propagate such false claims just to add a bullet point to their arsenal. Sony should spend less effort developing titles to support a feature that only a small number of people can enjoy and focus more on something that all gamers would truly benefit from.I suggest an online network thats worth a damn for starters. Now theres a feature that even folks with a Standard TV can enjoy.
wow, I'm seeing a lot of misconceptions in this comments section, so let's set a few things straight. first, the Xbox 360 currently (as in RIGHT NOW) upscales regular DVDs to 720p resolution through VGA cables and has done this since the June or April update (i forget which). It does such a good job that I got rid of my Samsung HD930 which used DVI connections and still couldn't upres as well as the 360.
When this next update comes (in November, i guess) it will add 1080p for movies over VGA (uprezzed regular DVDs and native 1080p HD-DVDs) and it will also add 720p/1080i support for movies over component (it only does 480p over component now and it looks like crap). Games can go up to 1080p through either connection.
I realize that there is nearly no support for 1080p over component in TVs, but most 1080p sets I've seen have VGA connections. I know these were originally mostly capped at 1280x1024 or something, but that's changing.
Also some earlier and current cheaper 1080p sets don't de-interlace 1080i material properly and end up just dropping every other field. Just make sure you know what de-interlacing chip your set has before you make a purchase and you'll be fine. Films are 24p naturally and 1080i can carry a 24p signal losslessly as long as it is properly decoded.
Someone mentioned modding this HD-DVD drive for use with PCs. I guess you missed the part of the announcement saying that it IS compatible with Windows XP Media Center PCs.
Chris your beef should be geared towards your TV manufacturer and not towards the Xbox having a lack of HDMI. A TV set being able to support 720p, 1080i over component cables is a basic feature that should be counted upon as being standard. If your TV does not do that then who's to blame?
If this ends up being the case, this would be so stupid. They should integrate the drive and add HDMI and be done with it. They're going to have to at some point, not only to compete with the PS3 on the HD end, but to satisfy consumers as well.
I do trust that MS will do what they say (Sony and the Playstation are the oversellers).
Also, no one will do ICT. There is no reason for a producer to limit their market. Its bad business. With that said:
Isn't the 360 supposed to be about choice. I am sick of the market evaluation comment by Microsoft. Many sets do require HDMI or VGA for 1080p (1080x1920). Also many sets shrink the screen size on the VGA input (don't know why).
The 360 has marketed choice since its inception. The hard drive: an option; wireless controller: optional; HDDVD: optional. Why shouldn't HDMI/DVI be an option?
MS if your listening. The market who has HDMI capability wants HDMI.
Why not? The HDMI technology is complete now and will support the optimal signal that is necessary for gaming and high definition.
Microsoft, give us choice.
Another thing I am sick of is the comment about evaluating market demand.
They are right now in the process of releasing 1080p ( something they won't make any money off of). This is costing M$ money to produce and distribute this update and they won't make any money back off of the update itself anyway, because its free. I think this is a misguided attempt at matching the PS3 right before release. They had to eat there words when they said Halo 3 would be released day and date to PS3 so they had to think of something new to combat it. Hence, 1080p.
So they are releasing 1080p, and I am happy. But they claim to be evaluating market demand for the HDMI, and I guarantee you the even the sets without 1080p that have hdmi would see benefit out of using that cable vs. component or VGA.
My point is that there is surely a bigger demand for HDMI than there is for 1080p itself. So if they are throwing money at 1080p, why not make some money off of the cable that everyone who has the capability of using, will buy. It is a sure thing for them and easy money. They should know that at least 90% of the people who have a set with HDMI and also own a 360 are the types that would go pay the $50 for the cable.
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Guys, check out this link:
http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=802523
You'll have to cut and copy, I think, but this is a HDMI cable preorder for 360 on GameStop for $99.