Sony sees Blu-ray growth in emerging markets
By Darren Murph 
posted Aug 14th 2007 9:24PM
posted Aug 14th 2007 9:24PM
Although exact sales figures overseas have been hotly contested, Sony Pictures Home Entertainment has just announced "an increase in total Blu-ray disc sales across six emerging markets including Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, Eastern Europe, South Africa, and the Middle East." Notably, Sony's T. Paul Miller mentioned that it was "extremely positive to see an increase in volume of BD software sales in these markets where piracy had previously ravaged the DVD business." Some of the top sellers in these locales included 007: Casino Royale, Ghost Rider, Open Season, Kung Fu Hustle, Black Hawk Down, XXX, and Stealth, and it was also stated that South Africa accounted for the largest share of BD sales (for the aforementioned regions) with "more than 15,000 units shipped to date."[Via MovieWeb]
I swear to god you people. Post a Sony issued statement that their sales have increased in Africa. I mean wtf, and yet you fail to report that Amazon picked HD DVD players as top picks for this holiday season.
This is so funny. Just keep at it, these idiotic press releases won't change the facts that HD DVD still owns them at most places worldwide. It's because HD DVD is a REAL, finished format that is supported by OFFICIAL DVD Forum and completely open for the whole world to use and not some half baked hack standard created with only one need. To rip off consumers while they figure out how all things should work.
@Nfinity:
Anytime a BD or a Sony article comes up... how do I know that you're always going to be quick on the draw. Here's the perspective of a blu-ray supporter... When an article is written about Toshiba and/or praising HD-DVD, great for them, I have my preference and mind already made up.
If anyone from Engadget murmurs the word Soo... or Blu.. you guys come out of the wood works... Settle, down.. If you don't like it, don't read it. There's a lot on here that I don't agree about, but I just choose not to write about it.
In my mind, HD-DVD is losing the battle on paper compared to Sony, but it's not dead yet. All I have to say to you and anyone like you... quityerbitchin.
Come on. Their kick butt and taking names. I mean, 15,000 units to date is a lot. In a year, that's about 41 movies a day. They're gonna be rolling in the dough now. The BR execs might be able to use their bonus to take the fam to McDonalds.
wow they have just as bad taste in movies as people in the States!
It doesn't matter what Sony says, I prefer to deal with information through more verifiable sources, thanks.
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=395
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=396
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=397
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=399
Hey Will, grow up. Do you own Toshiba stock or what? You all sound like a bunch of crybabies.
No, I think we need MORE people like Will 'supporting' HD DVD. It'd be the best thing to happen to Blu-ray sales yet. ;-)
just say NO
http://say-no-to-blu-ray.com/
I can understand their panic - their favored format is losing (2:1) and it is something of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Each time there is another report of BD besting HD DVD, it discourages people from buying HD DVD and encourages them to consider BD. But that's not bias - that's just life. When people hear about a winner, they tend to gravitate toward the winning side - unless the loser really doesn't something big to turn it around. And HD DVD is running out of tricks. Disc giveaways haven't turned the tide. Price cuts haven't turned the tide. New players haven't turned the tide.
It is only natural that there will be more positive articles about BD because it is the market leader and has been 'winning' sales contests - such as with '300'. While all HD DVD can do is focus on minor stories like 'selling more standalone players' - of course there was an article this week that several A/V retailers are reporting BD is pulling ahead of HD DVD in player sales in their stores since Sony released the BDP-S300. Even sold side by side with Toshiba's cheaper players.
HD DVD fans would prefer we all just shut up about BD because they're sick of hearing about how it is beating HD DVD - they're getting very emotional about it. That's human nature I suppose.
Personally I think BD is the superior format, and I have since before it was even called Blu-ray - in the early days of the proposals. And I have backed the proposal now known as Blu-ray since before either one launched, and before there was a war. And I wish for the demise of HD DVD mainly because I hate format wars and have no use for an inferior format. I think the world would be a better place if Toshiba hadn't been so greedy and had joined the BDA one of the several times they were openly invited to do so. (I'm sure nfinity will take issue with that - I've read comments from him elsewhere with a 'unique' version of history where Toshiba was somehow the white knight and the entire rest of the industry spurned them. Bizarre.)
More with the numbers "shipped", I swear Sony is getting so annoying with these announcements.
nfinity - You realize the 'DVD Forum' is just an industry group formed to govern DVD *JUST LIKE* the BDA was formed to govern Blu-ray, right? The DVD Forum is not special at all - and if you check the membership lists for both groups they basically overlap. Toshiba simply took the HD DVD specification to the DVD Forum as a fait accompli and it was rubber stamped. The fact that the DVD Forum backs HD DVD means nothing. It isn't like they have some special authority. They are *exactly the same* as the BDA - an open industry group, not a standards body or the like.
I've read a number of your posts on AVSForums and elsewhere, and you get a lot of stuff wrong about the history of the format development too.
Will - As for BD being unfinished - standards evolve. It seems people have forgotten that the DVD specs changed after release - the biggest change was the addition of DTS audio, which the first generation of players didn't support.
And I love the intelligent reparte, Will. Makes HD DVD fans look just fantastic.
Seems HD DVD fans are getting pretty defensive about their formate getting whipped. I will continue to gloat. ;-)
@MegaZone
===
nfinity - You realize the 'DVD Forum' is just an industry group formed to govern DVD *JUST LIKE* the BDA was formed to govern Blu-ray, right? The DVD Forum is not special at all - and if you check the membership lists for both groups they basically overlap. Toshiba simply took the HD DVD specification to the DVD Forum as a fait accompli and it was rubber stamped. The fact that the DVD Forum backs HD DVD means nothing. It isn't like they have some special authority. They are *exactly the same* as the BDA - an open industry group, not a standards body or the like.
====
It is special. The DVD Forum is an international organization composed of hardware, software, media and content companies that use and develop the DVD and HD DVD formats. It was initially known as the DVD Consortium when it was founded in 1995.
DVD Forum has a proven track record of managing a successful format for over 10 years now. It gives them credibility in EVERY way over greedy BDA. DVD Forum is diverse, includes many of the same companies, true, which just shows that BDA was founded as an outsider purely for fulfilling greed purposes. It has ABSOLUTELY no track record whatsoever and if anything it has proven that it doesn't care for consumers ONE BIT. What you are saying is complete non-sense, last time i checked DVD was a standard you tool and Blu-Ray is not.
===
I've read a number of your posts on AVSForums and elsewhere, and you get a lot of stuff wrong about the history of the format development too.
===
Last time I checked everything I said has shown to be true and confirmed by many people on AVS. I don't know really what you are talking about, but you are welcome to quote my "incorrect" information. If it comes to YOUR opinion, then it's a different story, because you can have YOUR opinions as much as you want, that doesn't make them true.
===
Will - As for BD being unfinished - standards evolve. It seems people have forgotten that the DVD specs changed after release - the biggest change was the addition of DTS audio, which the first generation of players didn't support.
===
Standards EVOLVE? Hahahah.. now that's funny piece of comment right there.
So let me get this straight, we need to pay $500+ for standard that needs to EVOLVE to match all features and specs of HD DVD that's already FINISHED. EVOLVE in Sony's case means that CONSUMER buys a $500+ Blu-Ray player, that will NOT play many features of Profile 1.1 titles in only a few months from now as confirmed by Blu-Ray group.
Sure but this is not important right. As long as you can play the movie it's ok? This is so ridiculous it's not even funny. A next gen format that plays only movies and none of the features. So what exactly does this mean? That means that EVERYONE who buys a Blu-Ray player until end of this year is a BETA tester for Sony and the crowd with their money. Awesome! Hey you know what, if you are fine with that who am I to stop you..but please stop calling Blu-Ray a superior format as it is clearly an unfinished, rushed out format that aims to "evolve" on the back of the consumers with some obvious and ridiculous drawbacks.
Hopefully it will evolve, when you'll actually be able to read your Blu-Ray authored discs on Blu-Ray players. Go read insider thread on AVS where Sony guys are conveniently NOT responding on these questions, a feature that HD DVD had from day one and EVERYONE from HD DVD Group confirmed that HD DVD authored disc will play on ALL HD DVD players. It has not even been officially stated that Playstation 3 will be Profile 1.1 compliant.
Again I would like to see what exactly do you consider superior except for some bitrates that has been proven HAVE absolutely no benefit for viewer as titles look and sound stunning at very low bitrates today because of more advanced encoding technologies. Hot Fuzz being a perfect example. Let me remind you that Hot Fuzz has been named the BEST hi-def title EVER. And yeah, you got it, it's on HD DVD.
So let's get this straight you are saying that Blu-Ray is superior and you would recommend to people to buy a format even though:
HD DVD:
-
@MegaZone (continued)
HD DVD:
- less then $200
- NO regional coding (order titles from anywhere they play - GO FIGURE)
- Advanced features that blow people's minds. Check Tokyo Drift ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZ81wjD4IFU - skip to 3rd minute) where you get to customize the car with rims, paint and other stuff and you actually see it live in the movie.
- Combo discs that allow more cost effective transition to hi-def, meaning you can buy one disc with both version in HD and SD on it and give it to your family to watch if they don't have hi-def or play it on a bedroom dvd without the need to buy another hi-def player.
- Web connectivity on ALL players
- Superior picture and audio quality in most hi-def titles when compared to Blu-Ray
- All HD DVD needs to do to match BD bitrates is to increase speed from 1 to 1.5X. 1X for an HD DVD = 36.55 Mbit/s
- TL 51 gb discs will be released before year's end and contrary to what Blu koolaid kids would like to believe WILL work on existing players (so you can write off that 50gb more capacity crap)
- The fact that all specs have been finished makes sure that ALL titles will play with full features on all players including 1st gen HD DVD players.
- Burn hi-def video to regular DVDs for playback on HD DVD players as true HD.
now Blu garbage:
Blu-Ray:
- $500+
- Region coding (works only in zone of origin)
- advanced features break Blu-Ray players and will most likely not be available on new titles as non of the current BD players are Profile 1.1 compliant. This means my friend that you'll be stuck with feature film only. Great $500+ investment!
- web not mandatory meaning that most title won't have web connectivity for features not to mention the hassle of updating firmware each time
- rot problem that has shown up in more then several cases on completely different titles from users. Yes, it's there even though some would like to say that roth problem is a myth. Discs were just sitting on the shelf and after a while they were unplayable. This means that we don't even know if a year from now Blu-Ray discs we have will develop rot problem. HD DVD does not have this problem.
- Most movies are encoded with MPEG-2 and look simply inferior with grain and other artifacts. This is why Blu-Ray in most cases needs bigger media and higher bitrates. MPEG-2 and AVC are inferior to VC1 encoding. Newer titles do look better on Blu-Ray and simpy just match the look of HD DVD without exceeding it. Sound wise, both formats are using more and more TrueHD that was in fact mandatory for EVERY player to support, unlike Blu-Ray players.
- Problems and incompatibilities with playback of BD-R/BD-RE discs on any Blu-Ray players. They enabled this playback in the beginning but have closed it because they say "it was for testing purposes with authoring of commercial titles". Read the AVS insider thread. Video professionals are FREAKING out.
So yeah, let me think who's superior here...RIGHT!
And let me just address the numbers..your Blu-Ray camp and PR BS was saying that Blu-Ray was destroying HD DVD beginning of this year with 4:1 ratio (they were taking Casino Royale as an example) and today it has fallen to 2:1 ratio despite the fact that PS3 numbers have TRIPPLED.
With 5 million Blu-Ray players out there and 400k HD DVD players out there, 2:1 ratio is just showing huge HD DVD power not the other way around, but I'm sure you'll engage your Blu-Ray senses and continue singing 2:1 song as a sign of superiority because frankly, that's the LAST thing you have.
Just keep patting yourself on the back and comforting. Cause those numbers will look different come 2008. Just watch and see and in the meantime, I'll give you until December before you buy your HD DVD player, unless you already have one, which wouldn't surprise me.
Again HD DVD is OFFICIAL hi-def version of DVD and as such IS already a standard. Just look at the logo and you'll understand what I'm talking about. Blu-Ray is an unfinished format that hopes to become the standard and as they are aware of their flaws the ONLY thing they can fight this war is through dirty PR approach where lies and low blows are nothing new for Sony. And this is the only thing HD DVD supporters here on Engadget BD are saying. The only way Engadget will publish HD DVD news is if it's SO obvious and huge that you can't hide it, but on the other hand it will publish crap like Blu-Ray shipped 15,000 discs to Africa. Ridiculous.
And here..some info about Blu-Ray for those who don't know.
http://www.say-no-to-blu-ray.com/
Those comments just prove what a spanner head you really are. How is blo ray a superior product? The hardware is clearly inferior with lower specified players, the players are more expensive, the product is and will continue to be choked by excessive draconian sony DRM, disc rot, but wow, you have bigger capacity discs! Big f****n deal.
You have chosen sides all right, the dark side. If sony hadnt purchased an unethical anti consumer monopoly there would be no format war, why would people pay more for a product that delivers less. If the playing field was level sonys blo ray wouldnt have evn got off the ground.
But hey, keep supporting the biggest anti consumer corporation in world history you idiot and we will all get screwed if sony wins this war.
i am not a HD DVD fanboy, but it pisses me to see blind idiots supporting this arrogant and ignorant anti consumer company.
Do some homework on sony, Google sonys consumer history and if you still support blo ray after finding out the truth you re an even bigger tool then your blogs show!
Funny that when people asked for this site to be fair and post international Blu-Ray DVDs that are also in HD-DVD the response was "It's too much work and why bother when it will lack interest" But International Blu-Ray news & releases are no problem. Nice..
I rofled at a few peoples posts. I just wish i could see the looks on your faces WHEN (not if) Universal goes Blu and the war is officially over... It would be PRICELESS.
Comon people, lets just make the inevitable quicker and just throw away any HDDVD's you may have and buy the Bluray version...:D
UNIVERSAL WILL NEVER GO BLU ! They hate DRM. Universal music is selling DRM free music and for the same reason Uiversal pics will not go blu they don't agree with sonys draconian, anti consumer ideals.
Universal and Microsoft both believe the consumer who buys the disc should legitimately be able to copy the product for their own personal use.
If people had this right it would wipe the pirates out, there would be no need for hot copies if you can make your own.
All the controls in the world will not stop the pirates as we see today, so if you cant beat them join them, that is Universal/microsofts philosophy and that flies in the face of sony. sony want to tie the market up more and more and more and the only people that hurts or effects is the honest ones!
F**k sony, they are living in the dark ages and all you fools supporting blu ray are in a round about way helping the pirating industry because the current system DOES NOT WORK.
So keep buying the more expensive, less featured product with more and more draconian controls you blu fools. Sony doesn't give a shit about the consumer, if they ever get a monopoly like they have been trying to do we are all screwed. Why do you blu idiots think all the manufactures went blu??? Because sony has told them if they have a monopoly they can keep prices high, and you f***wits are supporting this anti consumer company.
God help us all if sony wins
This is some of the most pathetic bickering about the formats I think I have seen to date. Just classless, especially with all the resorting to name calling, got to love the use of "fag", someone was reaching deep into their arsenal of their vocabulary.
I am not so sure what makes this format war seem so much worse than other type of arguments between competing products. The lines have been drawn, people have picked their sides and viscously defend their decission. Whether you want to admit it or not, both formats are great, the war isn't, but that is neither here nor there. Both formats have their strength and weaknesses, but what it boils down to is they both work perfectly for what they are suppose to do, deliver us HD content. HD-DVD 30 GB is more than enough for a movie and I personally don't think BD higher bit-rate (which is mainly for the old codecs like mpeg-2 to be in HD) and space is going to be a non-factor for deliver a movie in HD. The space, if ever really used, is only going to be used for more content. Which for me personally, waste of space as I rarely ever watch it.
People just need to face it, both are here to stay and that probably won't change for a while now. BD may be selling 2:1 now, but that wasn't always the case was it? No one can really predict what is going to happen with the market. I'm interested in seeing what will happen after the holiday season. We have cheap HD-DVD players, that we may see another price drop before the holiday season. Going against BD's current 2:1 sales of content and adding PS3 into the mix for holiday gifts. Like I said, it will be interesting to see what happens after the dust settle from the holiday season.
For me personally, it boils down to this. From the start I favored HD-DVD and hoped that this war never happened with Blu-ray going away. Obviously that didn't happen and we have a good split in content, which folks, is going to be the deciding factor of this war, not hardware. Maybe bitter at first, I have since just wanted this stupid war to end. I was hopeful when HD-DVD and BD went into talks for a joint effort, but upset when it fell through. I now realize to get my movies, I am going to have to support both formats whether I like it or not. I wish other people would learn to accept that fact also.
As far as what format I am going to get first, it really comes down to price. HD-DVD right now has that edge. I was in the market for a new DVD player, looking at the Oppo Digital. I had not wanted to jump into this format war yet. However, from my researching, I learned I could get a Toshiba HD-DVD player for not much more that does around as good as scaling at the Oppo (my main concern, I have a huge SD DVD collection) and get the bonus of being able to play HD-DVD.
Some other factors have to do with BD and its "final spec". We are going to see 2.0 players before not to long, there really isn't a point in buying a BD player with 1.1 right now from my point of view. I just can't justifying dropping that kind of money on a BD player knowing it will be out dated as far as the spec goes shortly. Besides, waiting only mean players will also drop in price.
I would also love to get a dual format player, but right now, that just is not cost affective for me right now. Besides, I am not found of the companies that are making dual format players right now and they are also first generation. I will wait that out also, for them to work the kinks out, get BD spec 2.0, the price to drop and most importantly get some quality manufactures (at least what I view as quality).
Until then, a HD-DVD player is the sweet spot for me while I ride out the storm.
@Gilbert: "Funny that when people asked for this site to be fair and post international Blu-Ray DVDs that are also in HD-DVD the response was "It's too much work and why bother when it will lack interest" But International Blu-Ray news & releases are no problem. Nice.."
Exactly. EngadgetBD.com won't post that disks that are BD exclusive in the US are available overseas (and that HD DVD is *REGION FREE*), and the Sony fanboys say, "Nobody cares about the rest of the world!" However, Sony has a press release about the rest of the world, and EngadgetBD just eats it up.
And the fanboys call HD DVD fans crazy? No, we just want equal coverage (or at least 2:1) coverage. OF course then Sony would pull their funding for the site, so I guess we can't blame 'em too much.
What a surprise... here's Nfinity with his usual fanboy rantings when a post acknowledging a statement made by Sony about Blu-Ray gets posted on engadgetHD. It only seems to be the HD DVD fanboys that whine and complain whenever a post that supports Blu-Ray is posted here. It must be a sign of despair when it's now dawning on them that Blu-Ray IS going to win this "war".
"It only seems to be the HD DVD fanboys that whine and complain whenever a post that supports Blu-Ray is posted here. It must be a sign of despair when it's now dawning on them that Blu-Ray IS going to win this "war"."
Ummm.... Why would a BD supporter complain about BD news being posted?
Look, nobody's complaining that the "news" (if you can call it that...) is being posted. HD DVD supporters are only complaining that this site is not giving equal coverage to the other format. They'll post about some Bose radio or some Sony press release, or some negative article about Universal (That's only posted on a known Blu-Ray sponsored site), but when asked to make a post about HD DVD's region free movies (ie: I can buy a movie anywhere in the world and play it at home), the BD fanboys say nobody cares about the rest of the world. Well, if that's true, why is Sony putting out this press release about shipping a whopping 15,000 units to South Africa???
If the site wants to be EngadgetBD, then fine, make that clear. But if it's supposed to be a general HD site, then it should cover all the angles. That's why many (myself included) think that Sony/BDA is giving some kickbacks out.
They love to cite "shipped" and not "sold" quantities of Blu-ray discs. I can ship a million discs to South Africa, it doesn't mean they're going to buy them, or that they want them in the first place.
I think this article is by far the lamest post Engadget has posted in awhile with regard to the format war.
I wholeheartedly agree with you "Xyzzy" this site needs to be unbiased or simply give into the urge to become a full fledged Blu-ray promo site.
We have been asking for far to long for them to honor international releases, or the international market and they release this spoon-fed story from Sony that's supposed to show a strong international consumer response for a format that isn't even region free!
What's the point of this article? "Oh don't worry fellow Blu-ray users, your friends in Eastern Europe, South Africa, and the Middle East will ensure the success of your faulty, region locked format." That's all I can successfully derive from the article. Oh, that and the fact that if South Africa is leading the pack with 15,000 shipped (not sold) then the other countries/territories aren't "embracing" Blu-ray nearly as much as they would have you believe.
"If the site wants to be EngadgetBD, then fine, make that clear. But if it's supposed to be a general HD site, then it should cover all the angles. That's why many (myself included) think that Sony/BDA is giving some kickbacks out."
Well, today we have one total Blu article and one announcement on a pure HD DVD release. The rest of the articles are on 1080p component, plasma tvs, etc. Yesterday covered the 3rd party HD DVD player and one or two Blu articles. So I think you have your better than 2:1 coverage.
I think it was you or Nfinity that brought up the 3rd gen Toshiba press release and complained that it wasn't getting air time as well on AVSForum. FUD or not, kickbacks or not, the public perception (where it cares) is that Blu is winning.
Moreover, this press release didn't concern the US. Though my American geography lessons are inferior, I believe the nations mentioned in this article are not in the US. I could be wrong.
Finally, while I'm not a long time reader of this site...I can't say it's any less neutral than any other HD targeted site. The "3 to 1" HD DVD press release got air time on this site right? And that was pure propaganda. If there is any ulterior motive at work, it's only to generate more hits and posts because we argue back and forth about it.
on the topic of equal coverage. .why not change 5 of the 9 side bars that a hd dvd related to blu ray in the name of equal exposure. it seems really just annoying that everyday you come to this site and just find complaining. the site isnt perfect does it purposely try to get people going? maybe it takes sony kickbacks but at the end of the day one format will be all that remains. while i do own a blu ray player( and work for a company that is blu ray exclusive) i did for a time own hd dvd players but just wasnt happy with the movie selection here in the states and did not want to pay a few extra bucks for those imports that are often missing features( check out the prestige).
"Moreover, this press release didn't concern the US. Though my American geography lessons are inferior, I believe the nations mentioned in this article are not in the US. I could be wrong."
That's my point -- in the "weekly release" threads, BD supporters say that international releases don't count because the USA is the major supporter of HD DVD/BD. Don't you think the fact that US-BD exclusives are available from Europe/Japan/etc on HD DVD is MUCH bigger news than, "South Africa receives 15,000 Blu-Ray disks from Sony?" Several people who have read the thread didn't realize you could import and now they do. That's REAL news. If there are BD releases available overseas that can be played in the States, I'd expect to see an article about that on the site as well!
In addition, recently most of the HD DVD articles have had very negative slants to them. The last couple haven't (surprisingly), but comments in the blog like, "HD DVD released product X at a low price point because they're desperate" were frequent.
@Xyzzy
From what I've read your one of the more level headed HD-DVD supporters that post. You state your case and don't appear to ever call names or attack. I'm stating this because I don't want you to feel like I'm jumping on you or anything.
I'm a Blu-ray supporter as you probably already know, and I agree with you that people should be informed that you can buy Blu-ray exclusive HD-DVD's outside the country. I have to add though, I clicked on a few of those links and the prices where outrageous. The first one sold for almost $60 and that was before you add on any fees for converting the currency and shipping. If they all sold for that price after buying 15 disks the consumer could have bought a Blu-ray player and then he/she would have had the option of watching disks not available even over in Europe.
I also should add that in the same comment thread where those links where posted an HD-DVD supporter said that he ordered most of his HD-DVD's from the US because they where cheaper even after the shipping.
Therefore If you want to add HD-DVD's to the count it should also be noted how much more expensive they are because I believe most of the people wouldn't buy them ( maybe one or two if it was a movie they REALLLLY!! wanted to have ).
If only we could all just cut and paste stuff from Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD_Forum
Didn't you say you were gonna stop commenting on this stuff weeks ago?
Looks like my reply was too long - I'll try breaking it up:
---
Man, you've got so much bullshit in there it isn't even worth trying to correct all of them since I can see you're drowning in your own Kool-Aid.
But I will address a couple of points:
1. DVD is no more a standard than BD is. The DVD Forum is no more a standards body than the BDA is. They were founded for the very same purposes - to promote their respective standards, centralize work on the standards, and centralize licensing. The BDA is no more 'greedy' than the DVD Forum. If you think otherwise, you're an idiot, plain an simple. Let me take your own words and reuse them with minor changes: "The BDA is an international organization composed of hardware, software, media and content companies that use and develop the BD format."
The DVD Forum was once a complete unknown and people said there was no need for it back when DVD was launched - the same kinds of arguments you're using right now against the BDA were used against the DVD Forum (Consortium) at the time.
2. 51GB HD DVD disks will not be out this year. Toshiba has stated, repeatedly, that they're simply a research effort at this time and that they have NOT submitted it to the DVD Forum for approval - yet. Please cite a reference for: a) Toshiba submitting the proposal to the DVD Forum, b) The DVD Forum accepting it and c) any announcement of plans for commercial availability. Even if they do go to 51GB - BD has demonstrated 100GB and even 200GB versions.
On top of that, there is no guarantee that the 51GB disc will work in today's players. I spoke face to face with Toshiba reps at CES in January and was told as much - have you spoken personally with Toshiba reps about this? The *hope* is that it will work on current players with a firmware update, and since Toshiba has been pretty much the only player vendor, they have a better shot. But they also have to consider the 360's drive, and all the PC drives from other vendors. The longer they wait before standardizing it, the more risk there is that drives hit the market which can't be updated.
3. Yes, standards evolve. Don't tell me you so naive you didn't know that... wait, I can buy that based on your posts. Have you ever worked on any standards personally? I have - I was a member of the W3C working groups that created HTML 4, CSS 2, and the WAI guideline recommendations. I was also on the IETF RADIUS working group. I've also keep track of *many* standards in my career - lots of standards change. New capabilities are added, old features get deprecated, etc. It happened to DVD - it will very likely happen to HD DVD if it survives.
4. Yes, what matters most is the core content. Most people never view the extras on their DVDs, let alone the interactive content on BD or HD DVD. Will that change over time? Probably. Will the early adopters who have BD players now really miss it? Probably not. Their players will continue to work just like today - which, counter to what you imply, DO NOT lack interactive features. BD 1.0 has a lot of interactive features with BD-J. BD 1.1 - mandated for all BD players starting in October, in time for the holidays - has more. BD Live has yet another layer. HD DVD has an edge in this - roughly comparable to BD 1.1+BD Live, but that hasn't made much difference. For example, '300' on HD DVD has interactive features missing on the BD release - yet the BD release sells 2:1 over HD DVD. Looks like the market isn't all that keen on the interactive features, doesn't it? Interactivity isn't going to save HD DVD alone - and going into this holiday season it will no longer be as big an issue as 3rd gen BD1.1 players begin to hit.
Sure, there isn't any certainty of the PS3 being BD 1.1 or BD-Live capable - but the hardware is definitely there, and there is little reason for Sony *not* to update the software.
And you WILL be able to read newer BD discs on existing players - PERIOD. That's been answered many times. BD 1.0, BD Live/2.0 etc, are all supersets of BD 1.0. Discs will simply fail-back to whatever BD level the player supports. It isn't rocket science. Implying otherwise is FUD.
5. Yes, BD's base bitrate is ~54Mbps compared to HD DVD's ~36Mbps - and that makes a difference. Sure, HD DVD could boots the base bitrate to 1.5x to match - but all of the existing players were designed around a 1x base bitrate. If any of those players have trouble reading at 1.5x (or higher), then you have to decide between locking those players out of media authored for a 1.5x base rate, or of sticking with 1x on the media. You criticize BD for adding features in increments, then turn around and make it sound like HD DVD can do that without any risk? Nice.
6. Region coding. Yes, BD has a very broad region coding scheme. HD DVD does not *currently* have region coding. However, the DVD Forum has signaled their intent to add region coding to HD DVD. Look up 'Regional Playback Control' in relation to HD DVD.
7. Combo-discs. BD can do combo discs just like HD DVD. Two types have been produced - dual-sided, with BD one side and DVD the other side. Another method is single-sided with BD layers 'over' DVD layers, with the DVD data being read 'through' the BD layers. Warner's 'Total HD' BD/HD DVD combo disc is the same concept, only instead of DVD layers they have HD DVD layers. They're not out there for the same reason there are few DVD/HD DVD combo discs - they cost more to make. The trend has been to release bundles - DVD+HD DVD or DVD+BD. Two discs in one case. It is actually cheaper to produce a DVD and a high-def disc than to produce one combo disc. The same thing happened to DVD18. The defect rates on those were high enough that it was cheaper to use two DVD9s instead - so DVD18 died. Dual-sided discs are also not popular with consumers AND studios because there is no place to put a nice label. People like having one side of the disc as the full label and not having to deal with the tiny print in the hub. Even the HD DVD camp is moving away from combos and doing more bundles. The combo argument is a red herring.
8. Burning hi-def video to standard DVD for playback. Yeah, and? Maybe you missed that BD *supports the same thing*. BD players support HD content in AVC/H.264 or VC-1 on DVD media - and there are hi-def camcorders already on the market that use this format. The HD DVD camp calls this 3X DVD, the BD camp calls it BD9. Same thing really - standard red-laser DVD using advanced codecs for HD content.
9. Pricing. The lowest MSRP for HD DVD is $299.99. The lowest MSRP for BD is $499.99 - for standalone players. If you're going to count the 360 add-on that's MSRP $179.99 - but it is dishonest to consider it without considering the cost of the 360 itself. That's like touting the price of a PC-drive without the cost of the PC. Real-world prices are lower with online discounts, etc - doing a very quick search on PriceGrabber I spotted a couple of earlier Toshiba HD DVD decks for $250-$300, and a Samsung BD deck for just under $300. There are 20GB PS3's being dumped for under $400. Prices vary often depending on specials.
10. ROT. FUD pure and simple. It was shown to be a manufacturing error and addressed. Shit happens. Laserdisc had rot - I experienced it myself. DVD had rot - ditto. CDs had rot. Know what? HD DVD will probably see rot at some point too - since it is physically the same as DVD. It happens - all it takes is contamination during manufacturing or a problem sealing the disc so the metallic layers oxidize. Only a fool waves the 'rot' issue around as if it is somehow damning. All it shows is ignorance on the part of the person making the claim.
11. A/V - More ignorance. Many professionals consider MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 to be generally superior to VC-1 for encoding. In generally they're very comparable. Claiming that VC-1 is inherently superior to AVC is blatant ignorance and/or bias. Both are superior to MPEG-2 - in as much as you can get the same image quality for a smaller file size, or higher image quality for the same file size. But there is nothing inherent in any of the formats that makes them universally better. MPEG-2 can produce images just as good as AVC or VC-1 - but it takes more data. Also, each format has it's own quirks in how it encodes video - so for a *specific* video, one codec may be better suited. But this is not universal, and there can be content with MPEG-2 (given the bandwidth) will produce the best results, while other content may be best encoded with AVC, and still other content gets the best results from VC-1.
More BD titles have been using TrueHD and PCM audio because it has more capacity and bandwidth to spare. It is more of a trade-off with HD DVD than with BD. That's simple math that you can't refute. (Love to see you try.)
12. You play with numbers to make your point. 2:1 is the key fact. I've never touted 4:1 - temporary spikes like that are meaningless. BD has held a very steady 2:1 advantage. Make up your mind on what numbers you want to use. You ignore the PS3 when it is convenient, then you include it when you can make BD look bad. Both approaches are idiotic. Counting all the PS3s is *stupid*. And I know Sony does that at times - they're stupid for doing so too. Not every PS3 is used as a BD player - period. On the other hand, not counting any PS3s is equally stupid - since it is clear that some PS3s *are* being used for BD playback. I purchased my PS3 primarily for BD, secondarily for gaming. I just interviewed a candidate at work today and we talked shop for a while - and he volunteered that he loves BD and hates HD DVD and uses a PS3 to watch his movies. And I hadn't said a word about it - so I didn't prompt that at all. I know other people who use the PS3 for movies too - some primarily, others as a secondary purpose to gaming. But it all matters.
The fact is there is no way to get an accurate count of how many 'BD players' are out there, since there is no way to know how many PS3s are being used to watch movies. It is clear that it is a major factor in BD sales - but precision how much of a factor can't be determined.
So anyone who uses the full number to say "Look how poor BD sales are compared to HD DVD based on player counts" is simply being a lying bastard, deliberately misusing data. Equally anyone who touts player sales numbers by comparing HD DVD and BD standalone players and completely ignore the 360 and PS3, is also lying with data - worse the people who count the 360 but exclude the PS3, they're being deliberately deceptive. "With 5 million Blu-Ray players out there and 400k HD DVD players out there, 2:1 ratio is just showing huge HD DVD power not the other way around" - you're either ignorant, stupid, or a lying bastard. Take your pick. You have to be one of the three to lump in all the PS3s like that. (And yes, the same still holds for Sony when they do it. Both sides have been guilty of picking favorable numbers.)
I guarantee I will not being buying an HD DVD player this year. I doubt anyone is going to buy me one either. I have plenty of HD content between my HD TiVo and BD, I see no point in wasting money on a format I expect to die in 2008. I wasted enough money on laserdisc back in the day. ;-) *If* it manages to survive well into next year, I might consider buying a player. But even then I might not - since Universal doesn't have that much 'must have' content for me. And they'd be the one and only reason to buy an HD DVD deck. If Universal ever goes dual-format, then I'd never buy HD DVD.
"Again HD DVD is OFFICIAL hi-def version of DVD and as such IS already a standard. Just look at the logo and you'll understand what I'm talking about." Wow... the ignorance is staggering. "Just look at the logo..." Unbelievable.
How old are you anyway? That sounds like an argument some 14-15 year old would use. (I'm 36 BTW, and a Director of IT by day.)
@ MegaZone
A few comments - nice post btw, but must have taken a while
On the 51GB disk. That disk is essentially the 45GB 3 layer disk with an extra 2 GB per layer. TDK accomplished the extra 2 GB by using the same process which created the 200GB 6 layer disk ( 33 GB per layer ). An extra 8 for Blu-ray and only 2 for HD-DVD. What's funny though is that Blu-ray has stated that it won't be compatible with any current players and non that are scheduled for production, while HD-DVD has only said that it'll be a high-end option.
As for the 45GB disks I've never found 1 HD-DVD guru who can tell me how they produced them. When the specs first came out I went through the numbers and it's plain how they came up with the 200GB theoretical limit for Blu-ray and 30GB for HD-DVD, essentially it's the maximum number of layers that the lasers light can pass through and still reflect enough light back to resolve the bit multiplied by the number of GB you can get on a layer. HD-DVD could do one of several things.
1. Increase power of laser
increased costs due to laser plus more heat resistent plastics
2. Use better grade of poly-carbonate to reduce refraction of light
way more expensive ( optical grade poly-carbonate is one of the most expensive parts of the disk )
3. Use better optics - not an option since developing a new set of optics would be too expensive and using the next best on the market that is cost efficient would make HD-DVD the same as Blu-ray and they'd have to pay royalties
4. Use a less reflective recording layer
would make the disk more prone to defects and more sensitive to sunlight and would be more expensive
5. Develop a filtering technology which could help resolve the bit ( PRML is the most common and was used in its basic form to help deal with reading the bits on the outer edge of the disk in HD-DVD and Blu-ray ). A much more advance system would be needed to deal with the amount of light lost due to a third layer and I've seen no hint of this in any current players, but I haven't looked at the 3rd gen yet.
Of these only 2 & 5 are plausable. All the others would increase the price of the hardware too much. 5 is most likely, but as I said I've heard and read nothing. 2 is also possible, I say this because it would put the burden of the cost on the studios instead of the hardware, which could be why none of them want it. It would be cheaper to put two disks in the box.
----------------
Your right on the combo disk stuff. Dumb idea IMHO. If they'd given the option of DVD, HD-DVD or combo that would have been good idea, but the combos are giving people the impression that it's the more expensive format.
----------------
Another interesting fact is that BD media is expected to be eventually cheaper to make than dvd's are, once they get into full mass production. Because they only have .1mm layer of optical polycarbonate necessary on the read side the rest of the disk can be and sufficiently rigid material ( paper has even been used ). This is even after the hard polish is applied.
director of what? megagirl u need to give the right information if sony is payin u big bucks u dont wonna make your pimp madd hoe. by the way i hear their releasing cars in a special rot edtion.
To all you Blow ray idiots, if sony hadn't spent a $zillion to purchase an anti consumer controlling monopoly in the movie studios blow ray would be dead all ready.
If it was an even playing field with both competing formats having the same studio opportunities HD DVD would have won this stupid war all ready.
If the consumer had the choice of a finished product and standard with more hardware features for less money, with no ridiculous sony DRM and no region encoding blu ray wouldn't even have got off the ground ( and who gives a flying F about more capacity, bla bla) The consumer simply would not have paid more for less......
.....however the playing field is not level, as usual sony has employed underhanded anti consumer practices to force a lead in this war and you BR fools are supporting it.
If we did not have HD DVD today and it was blow ray only there would be no choice. If you want HD, pay or piss off, $1000 per player........(and it wouldnt be the same if the camps were the other way around, Toshy is a hardware maker only, thats it, they dont have their finger in every pie like sony who have spent the last 20 years trying to dominate the market in one way or other)
Blu Ray=fools
I have zero respect for the way Blu-ray is being marketed.
Nifinity - I see you reference a post in February about the 51GB discs. That was widely reported - AND THEN DEBUNKED. Toshiba made official statements that the news was INCORRECT and they had NOT submitted it to the DVD forum and had NO plans for commercial production. That happened around March. Look it up. The source is even an Engadget post which Engadget later retracted. Geez. Here, brainiac, from the VERY SAME AVSForum thread you linked to: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9909203&&#post9909203
QUOTE:
Were puzzled ourself by where these reports came from, said Junko Furuta, a spokeswoman for the company in Tokyo. She said Toshiba hasnt made any further announcements about the disc since CES, and it wasnt submitted to any steering committees during this weeks DVD Forum meetings in Tokyo.
END QUOTE
Do you even read the threads you cite? Or just skim them looking for incorrect crap to parrot? If you read several pages into the thread it is full of discussion about how the 51GB disc was NOT submitted and will NOT be out this year. Damn man, you're making this too easy. I also love the fact that if you read the various threads on AVSForum there are plenty of people there who have stated the same facts I have - but you seem to pick and choose which threads/posts you care to believe or repeat. For example, in the very same thread, again, a number of people discuss how moving to a 1.5x speed would raise compatibility issues with existing hardware. So you fine repeating already debunked info, but ignore anything that doesn't fit your prejudice. Why is that?
I challenge you to find any statement from Toshiba or the DVD Forum about HDDVD51 being standardized, let alone commercialized. Have fun.
You can't believe everything you read on forums - I have seen a number of incorrect 'facts' posted on AVSForum too. That's no slam on the forum, it is just how ALL forums are.
Kindly post a cite for the '150GB' HD DVD. That is counter to what Toshiba has said in the past about the limits of the technology. Hitachi stated that today's BD optics could handle 6-layer 200GB discs. That doesn't necessarily mean the *players* could do it with a firmware upgrade, but the drives themselves could (according to Hitachi).
As for rot - FUD FUD FUD. That video means nothing, seen it, big deal. There were lots of RUMORS about what titles were affected - and those too were DEBUNKED. Check your facts. The problem was NOT as widespread as initially reported - rumors spread fast and you seem far, far too gullible. Please find reliable reports - not rumors, not random YouTube videos *repeating* the unsubstantiated rumors. But real reports in the industry - and good luck with that.
There were a lot of 'reports' shooting around - and in the end most of them we debunked the the root case was determined.
And if you think HD DVD is immune to rot because it is based on DVD, you're a fool. Rot can happen to complete mature technology - and it has hit DVD. Rot can be caused by many things - such as contamination during manufacture. And that can happen at *any* time - 1 year, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years - it doesn't matter.
I presume that you just agree all the other points I made are correct. ;-)
HD DVD is a finished format?
Is that why it plays all those DTS-MA tracks from Studio Canal HD DVD releases losslessly?
Oh, I guess it's not so finished after all.
It's amazing how many people are more comfortable welcoming Toshiba and Microsoft into their Home Theatre over Pioneer Elite, Panasonic, Denon and Samsung all how make their own blu-ray players, not rebadged Toshibas like the Onkyo, 360 add-on and RCA.
Smee - you're jaded. Sony don't control Blu-ray and haven't since 2002 when the BDA was formed. All decisions now have to go through the BDA's board of directors and if they're not approved, they're not implemented.
Board of Directors
Apple, Inc.
Dell
HP
Hitachi
LG
Mitsubishi Electric
Panasonic
Pioneer
Philips
Samsung
Sharp
Sony
Sun Microsystems
TDK
Thomson
Twentieth Century Fox
Walt Disney
Warner Bros.
As for price, DVD players went from $1,000 to $100 within the first three years, so Blu-ray is on the same pace WITH competition as DVD was WITHOUT competition. Fud-busted.
Toshiba is only hardware? That's odd because I've seen on high def digest some reviews of HD DVD movies from "Toshiba Entertainment" imported from Japan. FUD-busted.
Smee=jaded, misinformed fool
Nfinity - I also read on AVS that Blu-ray's 50GB discs were "science fiction" and would never see the light of day in production. Yet so far this year 75% of movies have been on the BD50 discs.
Only the specs for HD51 have been approved. That means nothing at all in terms of discs being released with movies. If they can't get them to work on current players then they will not make 300,000 HD DVD players redundant, sorry. HD51 will likely be used for PC data storage, whenever they finally get an HD DVD burner out (there are several Blu-ray burners out already available through amazon, newegg, tigerdirect, etc.). The same is true for BD100 and BD200 discs, both of which had prototypes at CES 2007 unlike Toshiba which just had a sign on a wall. (BD100 were at Panasonic's booth, BD200GB discs were at TDK's booth)
Rot problem is exclusive to Blu-ray? Funny how I have DVD's, CD's and laserdiscs with rot on them!
Boy, are you misinformed. Everything you said is incorrect.
1. Universal as a whole is not opposed to DRM in general. If they were, why do they use it on their DVDs and HD DVDs? You do realize that CSS is NOT mandatory on DVD and AACS is NOT mandatory on HD DVD, right? But Universal still uses it. That right there blows your argument to bits.
2. Furthermore, BD uses the *same* AACS as HD DVD. BD adds BD+ and ROM Mark - as OPTIONS. So Uninversal could released 100% DRM-free BD titles too. The format doesn't matter and your DRM argument is a complete red herring. Strike 2.
3. And finally, BOTH HD DVD and BD include Mandatory Managed Copy in their specifications. BOTH provide for consumers to make copies of the content to use on other devices. They have the SAME features, since it is part of the shared AACS spec. Strike three, you're out.
Additionally, as has been pointed out, Blu-ray does not equal Sony. And only people with malicious intent or intense ignorance continue to claim the two are interchangeable.
Smee, you're either a troll or a misinformed fool - or an HD DVD fanboy, but I repeat myself. ;-)
UNIVERSAL WILL NEVER GO BLU ! They hate DRM. Universal music is selling DRM free music and for the same reason Uiversal pics will not go blu they don't agree with sonys draconian, anti consumer ideals.
Universal and Microsoft both believe the consumer who buys the disc should legitimately be able to copy the product for their own personal use.
If people had this right it would wipe the pirates out, there would be no need for hot copies if you can make your own.
All the controls in the world will not stop the pirates as we see today, so if you cant beat them join them, that is Universal/microsofts philosophy and that flies in the face of sony. sony want to tie the market up more and more and more and the only people that hurts or effects is the honest ones!
F**k sony, they are living in the dark ages and all you fools supporting blu ray are in a round about way helping the pirating industry because the current system DOES NOT WORK.
So keep buying the more expensive, less featured product with more and more draconian controls you blu fools. Sony doesn't give a shit about the consumer, if they ever get a monopoly like they have been trying to do we are all screwed. Why do you blu idiots think all the manufactures went blu??? Because sony has told them if they have a monopoly they can keep prices high, and you f***wits are supporting this anti consumer company.
God help us all if sony wins
Megazone, you are so full of shit your eyes are brown, as i said, you keep supporting the inferior more expensive product and then bend over and touch you toes, cause sony is going to slide one right into you!
Sony does = blu ray, you are just a mis informed brainwashed ignoramus.
I hope you blu ray tools come back and read all the above drivel now HD DVD has gained the extra studio support, it makes some of the posts embarrassing to read now, hahahahahaha.