Engadget's Switched On, takes on the format war
By Ben Drawbaugh 
posted Sep 24th 2007 6:53PM
posted Sep 24th 2007 6:53PM
posted Sep 24th 2007 6:53PM
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Gag. It's a pathetic and frustrating time to be a tech-savvy consumer. I know some of you are early adopters, brave soulds, but I'm sitting here with my 1080 plasma, my directv, my xbox 360 in HD.... and am all ready to buy the next gen DVD and re-purchase all my fav films again. But I'm not spending a single dime while the format war is in full swing. FU format war, F you.
I felt the same way--but, ultimately, I realized that I was not taking full advantage of that 1080p television. So, I finally decided to bite the bullet and go HD-DVD. I'm on Netflix--so I don't buy any media unless I really like the movie.
Uh, what? If not for the format war prices would be way higher for HD films on optical discs.
I couldn't agree with you more! I have my DTV, 1080p LCD, and my PS3 (mainly for movies) and I'm totally sick of this "war" of stupidity. I don't care who wins at this point but I want it over NOW!
This holiday season will be decisive. HDTVs will be the biggest significant gift for the holidays, and many millions of new HD customers will be looking for ways to justify their purchase, and the magic
(Nice bug in the script caused an incomplete post.)
This holiday season will be decisive. HDTVs will be the biggest significant gift for the holidays, and many millions of new HD customers will be looking for ways to justify their purchase, and the magic (less than) $200 price point will not be reached by the hybrid players proposed in this article as the potential resolution to the war. In fact, only one of the two formats seems poised to have players in the correct price bracket.
My buddy just picked up new Samsung 46" LCD 1080p, picked up Xbox 360 and HD DVD add-on... he says he has it all now including Halo 3 LOL..
The point he made was very clear, he wanted to play games, he doesn't have a lot of money got the TV on financing and gets HD DVD for almost free because of disc promotion and the package he got at Fry's Electronics. Can't beat that. He says that Blu-Ray is insanely expensive, nothing new there.
This is what most people will do come this holiday season..if Blu-Ray doesn't have $300 player on the market..it'll be pretty much game ovah.
the game is already over because the ps3 and stanalone blu ray players are not coming down no time soon.
Will = Uneducated fanboy.
Um, ok, this part of the article makes no sense:
...
"Many comparisons have been made between the high-definition disc format wars and VHS vs. Betamax in which one format prevailed, but the analogy is poor because Sony, Betamax' main backer, had the more expensive option. In the case of the high-definition video disc war, Toshiba has been selling the less-expensive option..."
...
Wouldn't the analogy be spot-on (at least in this view), since Betamax and Blu-ray are both backed by Sony, and are both backed by Sony?
You are correct. The only difference this time is that most manufacturers are backing BRD. Sony was the ONLY company making betamax.
Now that Toshiba bought Paramount's loyalty, it'll be interesting to see what happens next. Since we all know that regardless of format, content is what matters.
Oops, make that: they are both backed by Sony, and both the most expensive option.
I wouldn't know why anyone would want a Blu-Ray player at this time. Your basically a BETA TESTER for Blu-Ray. On a Unfinished format that in every way is Inferior to HD DVD other then having that extra 20 gig's of space that so far has made ZERO difference. Basically forced to buy a NEW player next year if Blu-Ray will ever get it's act together and start Releasing Version 1.1 players. Of course all the current 1.0 version player owners are screwed, except maybe the PS3, but even that hasn't been confirmed.
Why would anyone want a single company this kind of control anyway? It's so Anti-Consumer it's crazy. Might as well move into Sony land.
That extra disc space isn't everything. I think this Video says it all and this was before the Paramount and Dreamworks HD DVD exclusive switch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GhSsV55ZZ4&mode=related&search=
Oh and the Restrictions of BD-R Disc Menu creation are far worse then DVD. It's Crazy, who in their right mind would want this garbage? Because it's in the PS3? Who cares. Leave the PS3 out of the Equation. Even if Blu-Ray dies for Movies, it'll still be used in the PS3, so it's a ZERO factor.
Can't you Blu-Ray fanboys see what's in front of your face? Double Copy Protection, Region Encoding, BD-R Restrictions, and the list goes on. That's what you really want? What, is it Anti-MS? MS part in HD DVD is small. They did VC-1 Encoding for BOTH HD DVD and Blu-Ray. Helped with the HDi for HD DVD which Blu-Ray could have used, but went with BD-J Instead. Toshiba is the Major player for HD DVD, and the last time I checked, they don't own any Movie Studio's. Far more Pro Consumer. Far less Restrictions, which of course most movie studio's don't like.
That extra so called 20 gig's of space, is it really worth it??? Is it really making any difference in a single movie released yet? On the off chance that YOU think it did, does all the Negatives in the format make that so called MINOR improvement worth it? In the other Audio/Video forums, so far HD DVD has been on top, but if you want to say you think Blu-Ray somehow looks or sounds better(Feature wise HD DVD has Blu-Ray blown out of the water) You just don't care about all the negatives??? Well I just don't get it. I'm just thinking SUCKERS. I'm sure SONY is also thinking something along those lines also. If it wasn't for the PS3, Blu-Ray would have FAILED from the start because of all the B.S. It sure can't stand up and hold it's own in a fair fight, that's for sure. Thinking it's better because it's in the PS3 is just silly. Again, I just don't get it. Who could like Blu-Ray other then blind fanboy's, SONY and some Movie studio's that like the Double Copy protection and Region Encoding?
I would rather stick with DVD then to EVER support Blu-Ray. As a person with a few Hundred Movie DVD's and a slowly growing collection of HD DVD, I will say I will NEVER, EVER use Blu-Ray. PERIOD. If/When I buy a PS3 in the future, it will be fore GAMES, I'm just waiting some some great games to play on it. I would NEVER buy a Blu-Ray movie to play on it, EVER. If I can't get the movie on HD DVD, I'll just buy it on DVD, or possibly out of the country on HD DVD like around 40 others that are supposedly Blu-Ray only. Thanks to being Region FREE on HD DVD, I can spend a few bucks more and still buy it on HD DVD.
Quite a rant you have going there. Sounds like some displaced fanboy anger.
JBDDragon:
So are you just a person who reads Blu-ray headlines and the first two lines of article and research? You've got one manufacture (for now) making HD-DVD players "Lost leaders" by keeping them extremely cheap. I'm still confused on how Blu-ray is inferior to HD-DVD as a format? the extra 20 gigs has made all the world of difference,
Higher bitrate/bandwidth + extra storage + larger apertuer = blu-ray.
In a scenario of neutrality, Smallville is released on two formats. Blu-ray is a 4 disc release, HD-DVD is 5. HD-DVD has a smaller limit of bandwidth, same great picture as blu-ray, but it's blu-ray that's keeping that headroom open.
HD-DVD has great interactivity, and PiP experience. For the time being, Blu-ray has a kickass movie, great audio tracks, and plenty of headroom for the future.
The PS3 is a great machine, although it did come a bit pricey, relative to what you are getting regardless if you're only BD or gamer. PS3 is doing awesome in sales considering it's been out less than a year. It's no Wii, but for the time being, it's great and they're doing a great job with the upcoming titles.
Double Copy Protection, Region Encoding, BD-R Restrictions, and the list goes on... Listen, you can't have your cake and eat it too, this is what intrigues studios to join, this is not a selling point for the consumer.
JBDragon. You need to work on two things 1)More research about blu-ray before you go on a rant 2) Summary skills.
@Kurt-
You beat me to it. That line about Sony only works if you believe that Blu-ray will win. If HD DVD wins, the analogy is perfect, and has the loser losing for the identical reasons. Beta was technologically superior, but more expensive, buggy and less well developed than VHS.
The analogy fails, however, in that there were no content cartels. Studios had no horse in the race and produced for both, at least until VHS had won. Sony actually bought those studios as a "never again" move. For those that thought there was some chance of a blu/red compromise, think again; Sony had been planning this war for over a decade.
Well if they have planned it for over a decade, I'd say they planned very poorly and somebody needs to get their ass kicked over at Sony, cause billions in losses and stil losing is not what I call planning.
No, it's more like they thought we'll release PS3 with Blu-Ray, buy a few large studios to support Blu-Ray exclusively, buy MGM and it will be done deal in a matter of months.
Unfortunately, they made several huge mistakes. PS3 came out late, too expensive, no options to the consumer, Blu-Ray is unfinished and it will need another year and a half to match HD DVD's full feature set.
Now HD DVD offers equal quality, more features, sub $200 players and XBox 360 add-ons are yet to show their REAL power.
In other words Sony has planned this one sloppy and of course with again greed in mind and completely arrogance like everything else they do. They are pretty much screwed and Neilsen nubmers are starting to show from 4:1 lead in software sales BD advantage is shrinking rapidly, past couple of weeks it's been steadily 1.5:1 and lowering and this is with very few HD DVD releases too.
Nfinity:
HD-DVD needs a year and half to catch up with the higher bandwidth that blu-rays offers. It's a trade-off. As much as you can see HD-DVD working, it doesn't have the headroom and leway that BD has. Both great formats, I choose Blu-ray because it's got more headroom for the future.
HD-DVD guys, do a cross-study, and stop trolling.
Nfinity--
Well, they bought Columbia/Tristar in 1989, shortly after giving up on Beta, with the avowed purpose of using the film libraries "next time." They led a consortium that bought MGM in 2005. MGM is usually listed as an independent blu-ray studio, but 45% of theiir stock is owned by Sony, and Sony Pictures has distribution rights to MGM's film library.
I find it really amazing to hear them cry foul when Toshiba cuts a co-marketing deal with Paramount so that Paramount does BACK to being HD exclusive, while Sony buys whole companies to get allies.
Kevin I know exactly what they did when they bought MGM. I worked with MGM at that time and a lot of people got fired too.
Columbia did not really have a lot to do in connection with Blu-Ray, though Sony did start developing their kind of new optical disc, however Blu-Ray really kicked in, I think around 2003. From 2003 they have started doing everythign they could to insure victory yet they have failed. Actually you know it's typical arrogance and greed from Sony. This is why they have not had a single successful format of their own. Each one failed miserably.
BTW, I find it as no accident that the headquarters of Sony Pictures was used for exterior shots of the evil devil-spawn law firm Wolfram & Hart in the TV series "Angel"
@Kevin -- Is that true? I'm a big Angel fan, but never heard that. Very cool.
That is the problem; Sony does not properly plan this stuff. It happened with beta, DAT, SACD, etc., etc. They always put their eggs in one basket, figuring people will buy, yet it has never worked for them. This time, they figured movies titles would sell, so rather then making a user friendly language(come on, is java friendly to those who haven't programmed before?), having their specs defined, and making sure everything is backwards compatible, and getting the DVD Forum on their side, they pushed forward figuring the would quickly win and everyone would be content and size.
I don't know the numbers, but Paramount(Dream Works is part of Par.) and Universal, their content is probably equal to, if not greater then the big guns with BR(Sony, Disney, Fox), etc. I keep hearing, LOTR will decide the war, BR has fox, which will win it on Star Wars, etc. No movie, unless it appeals to all genres equally will win it. Look at Pirates. That was about the most appealing movie to all ages and genres I can think of, and it really didn't sell much better then the matrix trilogy which really only appeals to science fiction crowd. Is it because HD-DVD was better? No, it's because people don't care and are skeptical when they see 2 competing formats side by side. Lack of knowledge coupled with all of the FUD we hear keeps the cash in the wallets.
Price is a big point, but in the long run, it doesn't matter. They will figure out how to get sub $100 winning players as soon as they can to make the most money. Yes, it will help decide, but realistically, it took years to get a sub $200 DVD player, and we aren't too far from that now with HD-DVD, thanks to the competition and need to get an adopted format on all sides. A lot of people will be burned by the war, but for the non-early adopter, this war has made things more affordable.
Had Sony defined everything, I'd have been in their corner, despite price. Where there's a will, there's a cheap way, however will needs to be clearly defined and backwards compatible(I know, the supposed 3 layer HD-DVD won't be, despite the fact that layers are read with a different temperature lasor, and if the layer needs a temp between the 2 existing ones, it's a firmware update, if they aren't already set up to play).
Speaking of firmware updates, HD-DVD is much better and easier to update thanks to the built in ethernet, right? AV users and computer geeks are cut from different cloth. Just cause we know to hook it up, or in BR's case, burn a CD with the update, it doesn't mean a mouth breather who couldn't figure out how to program a VCR will. RTFM. What is that?
I feel sorry for the return line cashiers at electronic stores.....
I'd hate to think that sony will be vindicated in this whole thing, but if the war can't be won I'll probably end up buying a PS3 to get Blu Ray. There is no significantly cheaper player on the horizon and I see the console getting a lot more features through firmware as time goes on (maybe even games!). I hate to consider it, but at some point I'm going to miss some of the big releases (for the most part I haven't cared about Blu Ray titles as much).
I hold out hope that a dual format player gets cheap quick, but I think adoption rate will start to saturate quicker than expected. People like my parents are perfectly happy with DVD and don't want to pay over twice the price for movies that they can't see the difference in resolution.
Domer you need to work on your research.
You either didn't know or failed to mention HD DVD is in process of approving 51gig disk so no more storage advantage.
Did you look at PS 3 sales lately...they are BAD. According to NPD ps3 sales fell from july to aug while xbox360 and wii continue to increase their monthly sales.
here is npd report...
In August video game hardware continued to soar, up over 94 percent to $384 million. Console hardware in particular grew 152 percent to $302 million, while portable hardware climbed only 5.5 percent. Unsurprisingly, the Wii was once again tops with 403.6K units, beating out the DS, which sold 383.3K units. As was somewhat expected following the price cuts, Microsoft's Xbox 360 saw a nice jump in sales as it rose from 170K in July to 276.7K in August. Meanwhile, the PS3 actually dropped from 159K to 130.6K in August. Rounding out the PlayStation platforms, the PS2 sold 202K units and the PSP sold 151.2K.
Factoring these August numbers in gives us life-to-date totals in the U.S. as follows:
PS2: 39.1 million
PS3: 1.75 million
PSP: 8.3 million
Xbox 360: 6.3 million
Wii: 4 million
NDS: 12.7 million
Sony does not distribute MGM titles. The consortium of private investors (to which Sony is a major player) that owns MGM awarded the contract to Fox.
Alas, more inaccurate HD DVD fanboi FUD. Get with the times, that news is nearly a year old!
By the way, Fox and Disney weren't bought off for Blu-ray support, as the president of Disney and Rupert Murdoch (owner of Fox via News Corp.) indicated last week. That's much unlike what Microsoft/Toshiba/HD DVD Forum had to do with the likes of Universal and Paramount/DreamWorks. Warner hasn't been "bought off" as of yet because they prefer to sell to us Blu-ray owners while hoping that HD DVD will win because it will ensure their patent portfolio on DVD that they hope to carry over to the next generation. People need to realize the whole reason for this format war is for the preservation of Warner's and Toshiba's patent portfolio on DVD, which is why the majority of the consumer electronics manufacturers support non-proprietary Blu-ray.
Non propriatery Blu-Ray..LOL..
Btw, don't talk about something you don't know.. Sony owns a 40% share of MGM and even though it does not distribute MGM titles it has a huge say what catalog titles will be published. One of the main reasons for Sony purchasing MGM was because of Blu-Ray war leverage and James Bond catalog.
Please don't talk out of your ass when you don't know facts. I worked with MGM during the transition. I know exactly the reasons and what involvement it has. Fox does have their hand in the jar as they have received the distribution rights for vintage Bond catalog release and is one of the reasons they support Sony in this battle.
I am an independent producer and it is a pain to have the ability to produce the HD content and have no way to deliver it. I keep hoping that someone will step in and make something that will make this whole discussion moot. Internet delivery, iTunes, HD DivX player, something, anything. And I blame Sony for all of the problems. Beta, MiniDisc, DAT, Memory stick, and all the others I am missing. Yes I know they are a business, beholden to the sock holders, blah blah but no company should own the delivery. And based on their track record, I am sure the board would have preferred to work together on a single format (like DVD). Sony controlling the platform would be death to any startup. Especially if Sony or one of it's companies is getting into the same business. Sony could stop your disc production run, place you behind their own products, and basically keep you off the market. Sure higher bandwidth and more storage would be nice but bonus features on the second disc is OK if I need it.
HD DVD also makes sense in marketing. Folks know what HD is and know what DVD is. HD DVD uses the DVD manufacturing process. I like the fact that with HD DVD, you can put both DVD and HD DVD on a single disk. Talk about a migration path. I like the fact if I chose (not that hungry yet), I could produce a HD porn video that didn't require permission from someone.
Sony is messing up. They thought the Playstation 3 was going to sweep it but again they assumed wrong. Dont get me wrong, Sony makes great hardware. I use their cameras exclusivley for my work and many many of their monitors, tape decks, and switchers. But because they also own the content, they do not allow HDMI inputs on HD devices, they don't allow HD (RGB) input on the prosumer and consumer products, and are trying to control the HDV format so that they can influence the post production software. If everyone had come to the conclusion that Blueray was the way to go I would get in line. Since it comes down to Sony (really it is) or everyone else, I vote HD DVD.
Learn to spell "proprietary" correctly.
It does not matter what Sony's motives were in trying to acquire MGM, the fact remains that Fox is the home video distributor of MGM titles and has been for most of this past year.
I stand by my comment on the subject of proprietary. Who makes HD DVD? Toshiba, and pretty much only Toshiba. Compare that with the number of companies that have Blu-ray players on the market today. When it comes to interactivity, Toshiba jumped into bed with Microsoft - the king of proprietary "standards" - to develop the platform. Sony and the Blu-ray camp instead went with an adaption of Java, which Java is almost completely open-source now. When it came to creating a replacement for MPEG-2, Sony, Apple, and others opted to work on what became H.264 (AVC); Microsoft pushed their own proprietary VC-1 (Windows Media 9) codec "solution" instead of working with others on a common standard. When Apple opted to create the iTunes Store, they used the standard AAC audio file format (with its FairPlay DRM wrapper added) instead of trying to push a proprietary file format like Microsoft's WMA.
No matter how you slice it or dice it, HD DVD is proprietary. While it might have many companies listed as supporting the "platform", in truth, it has about as much support as 3D0 had, just with the monopoly cash reserve of Microsoft via its "useful idiot" proxy Toshiba supporting it.
First of all, yeah I'm gonna spellcheck my entries responding to your posts.. it was a quick write, but you have to latch on something I guess.
Second, you talk complete non-sense so I won't even go into discussion with you..I'll just give you one of the stupidest things you have spewed. Java is not BD-J..one is open source the other is completely PROPRIETARY (if that makes you feel better)
In Hollywood circles it's well known that the MGM deal was the thing that Howard Stringer used to cap his career, the last of the "big deals".
MGM was bought as part of Hollywood hubris and failed miserably. The deal wasn't well structured and even though Sony spent BILLIONS(5-10) they didn't have a controlling stake. The other investors jumped ship and overrode Sony.
Stringers coup d'etat cost Sony 5+ billion dollars and gave the film library distribution to Fox. Sony is just watching it all happen without much to say about it. That is why the entire MGM catalog is not on bluray. Sony never got any real leverage out if the deal. Hence for me... No Rocky box set in Bluray.
The LA times ran a feature article about it a few months ago.
Knowledge is power! The more you know the more you grow.
Currently, it's SD-DVD for the win. Check out the latest episode of The Real HT Info Podcast (iTunes or google it) for a face-off between SD-DVD and HD-Disc.
Both HD-disc formats have a small window of opportunity to saturate the market. In 5 years, if HD-Disc hasn't become the defacto standard, downloadable options will be waiting in the wings. If not sooner, microsoft's big push with media extenders, and the various cable companies supporting movies on demand, will end up winning out. Consumer will take the ease over a less compressed picture, the same way they do now with SD-DVD.
Will it take 5 years?
Today I'm very happy downloading SD movies/TV shows onto my SD Tivo via Amazon's Unbox service - love the 99 cent movie rentals.
And I'm doing that overnight via a relatively slow 768KB connection ($10/month AT&T "merger agreement" DSL)
If it's just a matter of bandwidth don't see why it can't be done with HD content as well (to a cable/satellite DVR or Series 3/HD Tivo)
Right. Like Fox is truly "holding back" the MGM catalog from being released on Blu-ray just to spite Sony.
Now, had anyone said that Fox is holding back a lot of their own content AND MGM content from being released on Blu-ray until BD+ is fully deployed, then there'd probably be some truth to that argument.
Mike:
My research is fine, and what most users forget is the 10 month lifespan of the xbox 360. Also, your numbers are only for U.S. PS3 is selling fine (compared to 360) worldwide (especially japan). People forget... Xbox has been out about a year longer than PS3, so life-span numbers will appear a bit larger (disregarding wii which is kicking both their asses)
I haven't mentioned HD51 because it's still not official, there's been an announcement, and if you dont believe me, check betanews.com (can't remember exact link). I've also failed to mention quad-layer blu-ray 100gb, in which i predict(keyword) will hit at the same time or close there after.
For those who saying "Well, HD-DVD has a standard" it's a standard for "current-gen". Blu-ray doesn't have those specials/extras HD-DVD has, but it's focused head room makes it "next-gen" when directly compared to blu-ray on paper.
PS3 is NOT selling fine world wide, it is a sales disaster, you need to get your facts straight. Do some research before you start spouting crap, by any standard, by Sonys standard, PS3 is a sales disaster.
Become a member of the following site and view the graphs for yourself.
http://www.vgchartz.com/
Disaster? Wow, you make it sound like bloodshed. my research is fine, i'm not saying anything here is record breaking. compare it to when the xbox360 was 10 months old, and it did well at launch, but had crappy games until several months later.
PS3 is doing fine, this isn't spouting crap. And YES, it's doing great in Europe, best in Japan. Look at total number of units worldwide sold, not just US numbers.
PS3 is still being outsold by PS2. You must be a fanboy to suggest it's going OK, it has sold about half of Sonys pre launch predictions, yet you still think it's going great? Compared to what, Nintendo 64?
American Sales for the Week Ending September 15, 2007
For the week ending September 15, 2007, Xbox 360 saw sales above 80,000 in the Americas for only the second time in 2007. Wii sales remained higher than Xbox 360 sales, although the two consoles sold nearly 1:1 this week in the Americas. Despite the release of Heavenly Sword, PS3 sales were down sharply this week from last week. DS sales continue to be strong, while PSP posted another solid week. Sony's aging (sales) monster, the PS2 outsold PS3 again - by nearly 25,000 pieces of hardware. Below are the hardware comparisons for current generation platforms (Wii, PS3, 360, DS, PSP) from this week to last week.
15-Sep
8-Sep
Wii
93,455
116,659
-20%
DS
102,585
108,613
-6%
PS3
30,158
51,714
-42%
PSP
67,105
56,527
+19%
Xbox 360
88,658
75,690
+17%
PS3 is still being outsold by PS2. You must be a fanboy to suggest it's going OK, it has sold about half of Sonys pre launch predictions, yet you still think it's going great? Compared to what, Nintendo 64?
American Sales for the Week Ending September 15, 2007
For the week ending September 15, 2007, Xbox 360 saw sales above 80,000 in the Americas for only the second time in 2007. Wii sales remained higher than Xbox 360 sales, although the two consoles sold nearly 1:1 this week in the Americas. Despite the release of Heavenly Sword, PS3 sales were down sharply this week from last week. DS sales continue to be strong, while PSP posted another solid week. Sony's aging (sales) monster, the PS2 outsold PS3 again - by nearly 25,000 pieces of hardware. Below are the hardware comparisons for current generation platforms (Wii, PS3, 360, DS, PSP) from this week to last week.
15-Sep
8-Sep
Wii
93,455
116,659
-20%
DS
102,585
108,613
-6%
PS3
30,158
51,714
-42%
PSP
67,105
56,527
+19%
Xbox 360
88,658
75,690
+17%