We were
wondering how well HD DVD was doing with those new price cuts, and now here's Video Business with the answer: according to sources at retailers,
Wal-Mart,
Best Buy and Circuit City -- among others -- were able to move 90,000 stand-alone HD DVD players this weekend. Most of them were last year's entry level
HD-A2, which sold for the low, low price of $99 --
but not all. This dramatically increases the user base for the HD DVD camp, but that's not saying much since the format only
sold about this many stand-alone players in its first year. In the world of consumer electronics, 90k isn't that impressive, but considering the estimated loss Toshiba took on each unit, we can see why they'd want to limit the supply. The problem for the HD DVD camp is that they're really up against the PS3's sales, and even though only 40% of
PS3 owners realize that there is a Blu-ray player built in, that's still about 750,000 people in the US. But ultimately, this format war is about selling movies, and we'll be keeping a close eye on the
weekly sales numbers to assess the impact of this early holiday sales blitz.
[Thanks, Utah!]
posted Nov 7th 2007 9:58AM
Include me as one of the 90,000 new HD DVD owners out there.
Count me as a new owner too...and bought a 2nd to give my mom for Christmas.
I wonder how many HD DVD's players would need to be sold for Ben to see it as a victory. My Walmart was sold out fast. I was about 4 back of HD dvd sales (there were some laptop buyers ahead of me too..then by time I got mine and took it t car and got back in line I got one of the last one's. There was a huge demand.
Tiger Direct had these players for $139. I bought one. These are not an entry level players, (remember the HD-A1), but the 2nd generation model. People were ready and able to give up their old VHS tapes when DVD first come out because of the picture qualty. I would think the player that is backwards compatible with standard DVD's will win with most comsumers since they have hundreds and hundreds of DVD and will not throw them away to upgrade to HD versions of the same DVD.
The one thing this does show is how important price is to the average consumer. At $500 and $700 Toshiba was able to move 100k in one year, but at $99, they can effectively about double their user base in one weekend. Not counting how many forum junkies were picking up second or third units, this really was a big victory in getting HD DVD into mainstream America. A lot of people were right, this is BD's war to lose, and they will have to mobilize into this price bracket to really put the screws to HD DVD.
Just so you know, the installed base of HD DVD standalones before this sale had surpassed 400,000, I believe, plus Xbox360 add-ons, which make up more than 100,000 more units.
So they're not doubling the installed base, just adding to it significantly.
Once again a very blu biased article on seemingly good news for the red camp.
Well im assuming there will be a spike in hd-dvd sales considering Best Buy was packaging 3 instant Movies with their deals... Circuit city i believ was doing something similar... those 3 instant movies technically count as a sale i believe... (and no not the two attached movies inside the box... 3 extra movies)....
I think the A-30 is even low enough for me to pick up a 2nd DVD player for the house... 299 with 2 movies inside, 3 instant, and 5 in the mail...
Still waiting for blu-ray to do something special like that instead of saying "screw you" to early developers and coming out with Profile 2.0...
I think we'll see the first big problem with the numbers this week -- they don't include WalMart. Even if you assume that only half the people who bought the A2 bought a movie to go with it (seems like a low estimate to me), that's 45,000 movies that won't be counted in the totals which in the early stages of HDM, is a huge number.
Numbers don't include WalMart?! How can you not include the biggest retailer in sales? I'm so confused, lol.
The studios would not look twice at Nielsens, what's important to them is the total number shipped, and at the moment HD DVD will be shipping plenty.
The first camp to break the $200 barrier will have a huge advantage; let alone the $100 barrier. Pundits were saying this since both formats launched. Middle-America is value-conscious. Most don't know what a Magnolia is. They do know what Walmart and Target are.
FYI though, I think the installed-base is much higher than 90K when you factor in the XBox 360 add-on drive. But adding another 90K to the installed base of HD-DVD in one weekend: Wow!
This is a no-brainer for Toshiba. They have such a vested interest in the format, at this point they will take the loss on each player. Sony, though they also have a vested interest in the Blu-Ray format, probably cannot afford to bleed more than they already are (on the PS3) and lower stand-alone player sales as well. Other companies really don't have as much to lose and will not take a loss on their stand-alone players at all. This definitely bodes well for HD-DVD rolling into the holiday season.
Why does everyone assume Toshiba lost money on the $99 HD-A2 players? If Toshiba truly sold the players below cost then why is it that A2 wasn't on sale for $99 in all states. In Oklahoma, the price of the A2 was $185 and not $99 because Wal-Mart could not sell the players for less than what they paid for them in that state. If any one lost money on the sale of the A2 players its the retailers and not Toshiba.
@Mark
I don't think you fully understand how retail works. The stores don't necessarily "buy" every item from the manufacturer before it is put on the store shelves. There are almost always agreements in place, especially with electronic devices.
Merchandisers will often initiate returns too where stores actually send back the item to the manufacturer so they can ship somewhere else with higher demand, limit supply, or just take the product off the market.
Wal-Mart does not report to VideoScan or Nielson. It's their right to withhold that information, and honestly, I don't blame them for refusing to release that information.
Haha! This guy Ben sounds pretty biased.
"This dramatically increases the user base for the HD DVD camp, but that's not saying much..."
I would argue that nearly 100,000 HD player of either format in a single weekend is saying a lot. Anyone know how many BD players are sold in a weekend? What about its highest selling weekend?
"In the world of consumer electronics, 90k isn't that impressive..."
Maybe not but it is very impressive in the HD movie market. Did it set a record for single weekend sales for either formats set top player? I would venture a bet that it did.
"...ultimately, this format war is about selling movies..."
That is correct, and with nearly 100,000 more HD DVD players on the market you are going to see them selling like hotcakes.
Not to bash Blu-Ray but they have been a little disorganized as of late:
Almost all Bluray player models on the market today cannot ever run the "true" BD 1.1 "final spec" that is supposed to be the standard performance function of the format.
On October 31 2007, the BD 1.1 so-called "final spec" became "mandatory", meaning that ALL new Bluray player models put on sale from today onwards MUST run the BD 1.1 software. Those that adopted early got a proverbial, "screw U." Keep in mind, there is also BD 2.0 which is not mandatory. Note that the "final spec" still doesn't require network ports for Internet access, like HD DVD.
Since there are NO BD 1.1 players on the market yet the Bluray Disc Association (BDA) then announced that the BD 1.1 "mandatory" requirements are being "relaxed" for some players - meaning... they don't have to run BD 1.1.
Ref: http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6495668.html
It would have been 90,001 if I could have found one.
Make that 90,002
HD-DVD wins.
Seriously, the bashing of HD-DVD success is getting ridiculous. Ben, do you have one objective bone in your body?
"This dramatically increases the user base for the HD DVD camp, but that's not saying much since the format only sold about this many stand-alone players in its first year."
I look at this as HUGE growth for the HD-DVD format and shows the rapidly increasing demand for this format. Now to be objective, what are the BD players growth number? Do they compare? Let's look at apples to apples? Or are they so pitiful that one has to trivialize the HD-DVD growth with comments like this.
"In the world of consumer electronics, 90k isn't that impressive, but considering the estimated loss Toshiba took on each unit, we can see why they'd want to limit the supply."
Prove it. Show me where it says Toshiba is losing money on any of these players. You better have facts to back up statements like this. Also, do you understand business, at all? Of course the supply was limited, because the A2 is discontinued, meaning, they don't make it any more. They were clearing out inventory for the newer model, the A3. It has nothing to do with limiting the "supposed" loss on each unit.
"The problem for the HD DVD camp is that they're really up against the PS3's sales, and even though only 40% of PS3 owners realize that there is a Blu-ray player built in, that's still about 750,000 people in the US."
Once again, objectivity Ben. How about you include 360 HD Drives, hmmm. See, you're quick to point out numbers that favor your weak argument, but won't back up any statements with them if they hurt you.
"But ultimately, this format war is about selling movies, and we'll be keeping a close eye on the weekly sales numbers to assess the impact of this early holiday sales blitz."
Hardware starts this, and no matter how you want to spin it, HD-DVD just doubled the amount of hardware in one weekend even by your numbers.
ok 100,000 hd dvd players sold before this? are you counting the 360 hd dvd add on. There was a news report saying that over 200,000 units have been sold so far. add 100,000 standalone players which had been previously sold according to ben's estimates and another 100,000 this weekend that more in the range of around 400,000. we havnt even hit black friday yet, a couple more weekends with discounted hd dvd players and toshiba will have sony wondering of their stance to stay at 399.99.
Is this 90k number just A2's or all HD DVD standalone player sales? I personally picked up an A3 so I could get the free scanned movies and 2 in box plus the 5 mail-in rebate ones. I don't think the A2's came with anything other than the 5 mail-in rebate ones.
Ben,
Did you read the story with your BLU-glasses on again. You left out some good lines from the story like :
"Within three days, Toshiba corralled nearly as many sales as the best-selling stand-alone Blu-ray Disc player has sold since its launch. Sonys dominant Blu-ray set-top, the $499 BDP-S300, has shipped about 100,000 since it bowed this summer."
and
"In fact, the 90,000 figure for HD-A2 sales could be even higher, as it doesnt appear to include all retailer information. "
nowhere did I see that only 90K HD-DVD players have been sold before this sale. That seems very low to me.
Maybe blu-Ray has sold more players because people have to keep upgrading the player every time a new standard comes out. Your beloved BDP-1000 was one of the worst reviewed pieces of hardware Home Theater mag has ever reviewed. I guess the people who bought the first gen Blu-Ray players have already had to upgrade to a better player.
Robb,
So it's fair for you to only compare one Blu-ray player's sales, when there are like 10 available?
I linked to the article where we covered the fact that Toshiba said they sold 100k HD DVD players in the first year.
How do you figure I love my BD-P1000? It gets me by, honestly I'm waiting for a Blu-ray changer or at least a player with a RS-232 port before I upgrade. I have considered buying a HD-A35, but Toshiba sends me new players to review all the time, so I haven't been very motivated to buy one.
I've felt more confident about buying HD DVD movies with this move. I bought 2 in the last week.
Why does each of these stories keep bringing up Blu-ray? That camp had no formal rebuttal and still takes up half the story. It's not like we hear about HD-DVD's great interactive features in every article about Blu-Ray profile 5.oh-your-player-isbroken.
So the $99 special was only for Friday? Now the A2 is back up to $200?
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Best_Buy/Wal-Mart/High-Def_Retailing/Toshiba/Report:_Weekend_Toshiba_HD_DVD_Player_Sales_Top_90,000/1150
The numbers do include Wal-Mart.
@Darayz- I doubt that all of the people who purchased this have never had an HD-DVD player.
walmart #'s arent included in movie sales. They are inlcuded for this # but these are player sales.
Yes, the 90k count covers WalMart, but the weekly media sales don't from what I've read.
These number, the 90,000, include Walmart.
But Walmart is not included in the Nielson numbers, which are the weekly (one week delayed) sales number for software.
210k HD DVD 360 Add-ons sold in less than a years time! Bear in mind, that figure doesn't include October's sales wherein Best Buy began running the promotion where you get the first season of Heroes on HD DVD for free with the purchase of the HD DVD add-on for the 360, in addition to Toshiba's Perfect Offer.
Kevin Collins has gone on record as saying that the sales for the HD DVD add-on for the 360 have easily eclipsed Blu-ray standalone sales by a healthy margin. He refused to comment on the exact number but he reassured the reporter that it was quite a bit more than all of the combined BD standalone players sold to date.
Sure, this doesn't include the PS3 sales, but does it even matter? For an add-on to outsell the competition's standalone players is most definitely not a good thing, regardless of how you want to spin it.
WOW! the fanboyism is rampant and engadget's blu ray bias is again aparrent, who would have thought! Somehow you try to twist moving 90K players into a bad thing? give me a break guys, try and keep your personal feelings out of it.
As much as I disagree with Ben's slant, this IS a BLOG, not a News site - editorializing is allowed.
Though it would be better for Ben's rep if he could manage an ounce or two of objectivity or balance.
Just compairing 1 for 1. There is more then 1 HD-DVD player model on the market as well.
As for the BD-P1000. it sounds like a little bit of a love fest with it on the Podcast. If for know other reason then it doesnt sound like to you any other player is as good (HD-DVD player that is).
I love it! Whats hilarious to me is that now that profile 1.1 is mandatory for blu-ray, sony can't retaliate and spit out a cheap 1080i player to compete with the A2 without avoiding the 2nd video decoder which they have not yet put in any of their players! Sony is about to go down with the quickness.. everyone says this was a one time deal at Walmart, but why the hell would they market that HD DVD commercial on almost every tv channel? I keep seeing it constantly! Plus a Walmart representative said they had an indefinite amount of them available, not a limited supply. Target and Blockbuster are shooting theirselves in the feet with this graet new momentum change and I doubt their stance will stay for long, as well as studios. This will be a great holiday season for HD DVD! Hello, Black Fridy!
I have $24 in my pocket... I wonder how much money it will cost to buy Sony out...
I agree, c'mon Ben! We know you are a Blu Boy but to twist HD DVD DOUBLING its install base in ONE DAY as a negative? Wha wha what?
It's official, there is NO positive news for HD DVD that the writers here at engadget CAN'T spin into negative news.
The bottom line is in just three days HD-DVD moved at least 90,000 players AND started up a wildfire of free advertisement via retail competition for best price and consumer word of mouth. This is this format wars "Shot heard across the world".
Now that the word is out that HD movies can be had for under $200,000 HD DVD players are likely to continue to sell. That can only in turn boost HD DVD movie sales, which is what the movie studios like Warner want to see.
The PS3 outnumbering the HD DVD standalone number right now is almost a non issue. Even with as many PS3 owners as there are out there right now, few are looking to use the console for their home theater and those that are appear to hail from a single demographic. That doesn't afford the movie studios the flexibility they need for the other movies they produce. For every Spiderman 3 or Pirates, there is another 15 romantic comedies, dramas, suspense thrillers, coming of age tales, etc.
Add to that the fact that the PS3 is still being throughly outsold by the Xbox360 and Wii each month and it should be clear to everyone that the PS3 alone will not win this war.
Robb,
Not sure what you are referring to, but I don't think much of the BD-P1000 and don't remember ever saying anything to the contrary. In fact I have a BD-P1200 at my house on loan from Samsung and I don't like it either. The new 1400 is the ugliest yet and I won't buy another Samsung Blu-ray player.
Ben,
It is OK for you to nhave a personal preference in the format battle, but you go way overboard in spinning something that is very positive for HD DVD and for consumer into a Blu-Ray positive. If you don't want ot promote the fact that this was very popsitive for HDDVD, then at least present the story as it was written and let the readers decide. This unabashed Blu-Ray promotion we see from your every post causes engadget to lose a lot of credibility in many people's eyes.
I devalue the achievements of both sides, if you don't believe me, go read my Blu-ray posts where I get called a HD DVD fanboy.
The fact is that neither side is doing that great and Engadget sets out to expose PR spin, that's what we do. In the words of Paul when I showed him this story, "I don't know what's bigger news, the fact that they sold 90k units or the fact that it's news."
"This unabashed Blu-Ray promotion we see from your every post causes engadget to lose a lot of credibility in many people's eyes."
It's the sole reason I didn't vote for Engadget in the Weblog awards this year.
"I look at this as HUGE growth for the HD-DVD format and shows the rapidly increasing demand for this format. Now to be objective, what are the BD players growth number? Do they compare? Let's look at apples to apples? Or are they so pitiful that one has to trivialize the HD-DVD growth with comments like this."
Huge growth? I'm glad you think selling 200k stand alone player is huge. If I had the BD player stats I would have included them. The only stat I had access to is the BD-S300 and that isn't enough to be a good comparison.
"Prove it. Show me where it says Toshiba is losing money on any of these players. You better have facts to back up statements like this. Also, do you understand business, at all? Of course the supply was limited, because the A2 is discontinued, meaning, they don't make it any more. They were clearing out inventory for the newer model, the A3. It has nothing to do with limiting the "supposed" loss on each unit."
I don't believe they were simply "clearing out" the A2, cause I've been checking the stock of A2 at local BBs for months and they haven't been in stock and then all of a sudden there are thousands, and most with older manufacturer dates. This combined with some states not selling them becuase they are below cost proves that someone is loosing money, and yes I think it's Toshiba. You know I can't prove this.
"Once again, objectivity Ben. How about you include 360 HD Drives, hmmm. See, you're quick to point out numbers that favor your weak argument, but won't back up any statements with them if they hurt you."
There have been about 210k add-on drives, still doesn't really compare to 750k does it?
"Hardware starts this, and no matter how you want to spin it, HD-DVD just doubled the amount of hardware in one weekend even by your numbers."
True, which is why I said we'd be watching the numbers closely. But to your point, HD DVD didn't double there base this week so why would you think that they'd be able to close the 2:1 gap with just one weekend's worth of sales?
Wow, almost doubling their install base in one weekend and this is only the beginning of the holiday shopping season. The next few weeks should be very interesting indeed.
I'll be buying my Mom a HD-DVD player for Xmas (I got her a HDTV last year). I expect to find even more low price HD-DVD players within the next month. Hopefully I can get one without fighting the Black Friday crowd.
Ben,
Stop with comments that say you've been accused of being an HD-DVD fanboy, it doesn't mean anything. Your posts CLEARLY show your bias, especially in the face of such a huge HD-DVD success. There's nothing to 'devalue' with these numbers.
"
There have been about 210k add-on drives, still doesn't really compare to 750k does it?"
Well if you consider that all 210k are for movie watching and that 40% of those 750k who have PS3s don't know it has a Blu-Ray drive it becomes 210k vs. 300k. I don't know about you but that looks reasonably close to me.
@Ben
"The only stat I had access to is the BD-S300 and that isn't enough to be a good comparison."
I would argue that the entry level player for Blu-ray and the entry level player for HD DVD would be more than a good comparison. In fact, I think it's one of the most logical comparisons you could make given the circumstances.
No?
Ben, you said:
"This dramatically increases the user base for the HD DVD camp, but that's not saying much since the format only sold about this many stand-alone players in its first year. In the world of consumer electronics, 90k isn't that impressive,
I think what you are failing to see is that they sold 90K+ units in ONE WEEKEND. I don't know why you fail to see it since it is the title of this story. It IS saying "much" that a company can move just as many units in two days than it did in its first year out the door.
I know this may not mean alot, but i've had it with your lack of objective postings. I come to Engadget to try and stay away from pro HDDVD/pro Blu-ray sites, but this is ridiculous. I cannot rely on EngadgetHD for unbiased information and will look elsewhere for my HD info.
Let's add a little perspective.
750k PS3 users, but only 40% of them are aware of BluRay movies. Thats 300k. Maybe they all bought BD movies, but I doubt it. Let's overlook that.
Of the 210k 360 addon purchases, I can guarantee that every single one of those people knew they could play movies with it, so you can be guaranteed that they will all buy movies, too.
So, really, in terms of movie /purchasers/, when looking at PS3 and 360 users, there really isn't that big a difference, and any difference could probably be attributed to Sony marketing BD movie playback on PS3 pretty heavily.