European Blu-ray Chairman calls HD DVD Group's actions "unbelievable"
By Donald Melanson 
posted Nov 13th 2007 1:39PM
posted Nov 13th 2007 1:39PM
While it's not exactly a surprise that the Blu-ray folks are getting in yet another tussle with their counterparts in the HD DVD camp, the latest comments by the Blu-Ray Disc Association's European Chariman Frank Simonis do up the ante quite a bit, with some alleged misrepresentation of data on the HD DVD Group's part drawing most of his ire. More specifically, according to Tech.co.uk, Simonis is upset at the significantly higher "attach rate" that the European HD DVD Group recently touted, which Simonis now says was a "gross misrepresentation of data." Simonis goes on to claim that the HD DVD Group "manipulated" the data, adding that, "you can see this because they did not even supply access to the original source of their numbers." As if that wasn't enough, he then further slams the HD DVD folks by saying, "Honest to God, the Blu-ray Disc Association would never do this. We've seen so much rubbish come from the HD DVD Group it's unbelievable."[Thanks, Micheal]
IT'S ALL FUDGE I TELLS YA! This format war can be quite entertaining.
No surprise there. The real question is, what WOULDN'T desperate HD DVD association do? Of course they'll twist the truth and misrepresent facts... afterall, it's their survival at stake.
*sigh* Here he goes again. :/
He's baaaack
"Honest to God, the Blu-ray Disc Association would never do this. We've seen so much rubbish come from the HD DVD Group it's unbelievable."
LMAO!!! That was priceless, I did indeed need a good roar of laughter this morning.. Everyone knows that Sony and Blu-ray have manipulated numbers and figures to win over consumers ever since adoption. HD DVD has actually been the respectable side that isn't full of lies and claiming they've won the format war every other month! I mean, isn't the war over? Isn't HD DVD already dead as of several months ago? Oh wait, actually it looks like lately, HD DVD has absolutely been kicking Blu-ray in its blu-balls!
For kicking them in the balls, they sure havn't been selling as much in the last 11 months.
...like Blu-Ray announcing they've won the format war, when they clearly haven't?
Oh yes, they would never do anything like that :) Or stage BOGO sales every time a major title is launched for HD DVD. Or claim their format has the best in next-gen interactivity when none of their players support it. Or buy out MGM so that it would be Blu-ray exclusive. Or pay off Fox and Disney for exclusivity. Or claim to have the most capacity and still release most titles on 25 GB discs...or...well, you get the point.
The FUD that the hd dvd camp and its fanboys spread these days is unbelievable. They are simply lying and selling at huge loss just to suck up more souls into their doom but "unfortunately" it wont do.
The desperation of those suckers at hd dvd camp is really getting annoying. I would just let them RIP.
still waiting on a relavant point of view... just too bad yours wasnt... How much propaganda has Blu-Ray spilled?? its about time HDDVD stood up and did something...
I say good-day
Where's the proof that HD DVD players are sold at a loss? And don't quote that article that talks about a teardown of first-generation players, since the obviously doesn't apply.
Did you know the most popular Blu-ray player, the PS3, is sold at a greater than $200 per unit loss? Or is it just okay when Blu does it?
waahhhhhh, HD isnt sharinngggg.... IM TELLING!! WAAHHHHH!!!
call the frickin wah-mbulance...
HD isn't gaining any sympathy by washing the numbers out like this. They cant have it both ways. Either the PS3 IS or ISN'T included in all numbers.
Bad PR move. Now they have even less credibility over in the HD corner. Although Simonis does sound like a bit of a whiny child in that article.
Why don't you stop complaining and calling 'foul' and finalize your damn spec.
Despite HD DVD having a finalized spec, users still have a problem playing HD DVD combo discs and then there is always the boil an HD DVD disc to get it to play dilemma. The HD DVD attach rate announcement was incredibly misleading.
Of course, plenty of FUD-mongering on both sides. It is business after all!
@ h4Idol
snappy comeback, h4. good to know that you would at least acknowledge that BOTH sides are fudging the numbers.
Let me put into perspective how attachment rate is so misleading in Europe and other regions. Which is more important ...having attachment rate of 100 or 5? Depends on how many players out there for each side. Sure, you can have one player with 100 titles but it doesn't beat 100 players with attachment rate of 4 each. Software sale is not close outside of the US. Blu-ray has been dominating in Europe, Australia, and Japan by anywhere from 4:1 to 9:1.
That guys like he's directly from blu-ray.com.
What's to argue about though? You take the total number of blu-ray players and divide it by the sales of discs and you get your attach rate.
How are they fudging the numbers?
Ryan,
on one side the HD-DVD association doesn't count PS3's as BD players for total player sales. Then when they calculate the attach rate they do count the PS3.
Both calculations have been done in such a way that HD-DVD looks the best. It's okay to do one or the other but doing both is a simple lie.
It's one used here on the forums all the time.
Trent-
You still fail.
"And don't quote that article that talks about a teardown of first-generation players, since the obviously doesn't apply."
"Did you know the most popular Blu-ray player, the PS3, is sold at a greater than $200 per unit loss?"
Now YOU wouldn't happen to be quoting a tear down based on pre-release numbers of a first gen tear down? Oh wait yes you are. They systems for sale now are 3rd and 4th gen ps3's.
TrentD:
Did you know that your figure for the PS3 loss is about 8 months old? Blu-ray Diode went down from $125-8.
If you are calling the HD DVD camps information bullshit, Mr. Simonis, then show us some credible sources that proves otherwise. Otherwise, quietly shut your trap.
I don't want to read about the inane ramblings of some crybaby executive. Put up or shut up.
hey guys check this out
http://www.polldaddy.com/p.asp?p=137075
Hypocrisy at its finest...
BDA acts as though they didn't throw the first stone, what a bunch of whiny babies not getting their way.
But after all, HD-DVD is dead, so why does it matter at all... right?
"we lied, we claimed victory, now the other side is using our marketing tactics, waaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Next thing you know HD DVD is gonna play catchup and release 10 different hardware standards and leave early adopters in obsolescence waaaaaaaaaaaa!"
@joe
You only have to look at the amount of money sony is losing in it's game division to know they are losing bucket loads of money on the PS3. Loses are at record highs.
http://www.vgchartz.com/
Joe,
I agree that's playing the stats, but still, the attach rate is valid.
I guess they need to include the PS3 in the sales stats but simply say 80% of blu-ray player owners are not interested in the media.
On a side note since this an European issue it is possible the BDA over there hasn't been making crazy press announcements like over here.
Europe has laws about that kind of thing.
"Hypocrisy at its finest...
BDA acts as though they didn't throw the first stone, what a bunch of whiny babies not getting their way.
But after all, HD-DVD is dead, so why does it matter at all... right?"
Because when you are slandered on the product you defend, it does matter.
HD DVD was caught lying and manipulating, and it shouldn't go uncalled, as it has for months now with their stupid "attach rate" that one day includes PS3s and the next doesn't, depending on Tosh's needs.
Like it or not, 40% of the millions PS3 users know their PS3 plays Blu-Ray and use it as such.
And with SM3 included in the new PS3s, that will only grow.
Toshiba was caught, and they are even strating to get called on it by third parties:
"The HD DVD camp's decision to include PS3 sales in its figures also raised a few eyebrows in the Tech.co.uk office yesterday morning. In the past, by not including the PS3 in its figures, hardware sales looked more impressive for the HD DVD supporters.
But now, with the PS3 included when calculating the attach rate per player, the BD numbers are thus diluted. This is what the Blu-ray Disc Association chairman meant when he said the HD DVD camp had "manipulated" the data. "
http://www.tech.co.uk/home-entertainment/video/dvd-hdd-players-and-receivers/blu-ray-and-hd-dvd/news/blu-ray-reacts-angrily-to-hd-dvd-claims?articleid=126958731
I will say it again, hypocrisy at its finest...
BDA has no legs to stand on with their cry for a foul. BDA started the FUD and dirty tactics before they were even available to the public and now when they get a taste of their own medicine. They make a huge scene like a little kid throwing a temper tantrum. Which really makes their crys and whining essentially moot.
I think that it is making them look like the petulant childern of this format war, in turn just giving them bad PR more than anything.
You guys forgot to include what he was upset about. He was upset that the HD DVD promotional group is including PS3's when calculating average attach rate (a meaningless statistic) but not including them when stating overall hardware sales. Obviously the HD DVD group would not include PS3 numbers in that case because they would be outnumbered by millions of PS3 unit.
This entire format 1 versus format 2 pissing match is childish and a turnoff to many consumers like myself.
""Before the PS3 launched worldwide, BD movies were outselling HD DVD ones by 2-to-1 and now the PS3 is around, BD outsells HD DVD by 3-to1.""
It's hilarious to hear the guy bitch about manipulating the numbers, then come back and say that they're outselling HD DVD by 3:1 when we know for a fact that isn't true. Pot, meet kettle.
So HD combo discs have some problems, and BD discs have some rotting problems. Both discs have their share of manufacturing problems at the moment, so they cancel each other out. But only one format has a finalized spec.
How is the announcement misleading? Discs sold divided by players sold. It's not that hard.
Honestly, both companies should shut the F up. Looking at this relatively... Toshiba should get a slap on the wrist for doing this, while Sony should be imprisoned for the crap they pull.
Sony doesn't mind including the PS3 as a blu-ray player in their hardware counts... but when toshiba includes it in an Attach Rate study, they get all defensive...
from Joe "on one side the HD-DVD association doesn't count PS3's as BD players for total player sales. Then when they calculate the attach rate they do count the PS3.
Both calculations have been done in such a way that HD-DVD looks the best. It's okay to do one or the other but doing both is a simple lie..."
Ryan-
This is the kind of lie you can only get with statistics. The attach rate is still valid or the unit sales are still valid. They are not both valid because they require mutually exclusive basis assumptions.
It's a pretty tight spot to be caught in. Especially in Europe where BD is doing much better than it is in the US. The European HD-DVD association may be called out to actually present the data they are basing their figures on.
It would be interesting if they are willing to concede the total software sales numbers and the total hardware sales to BD. Both Euro values and volume numbers show BD firmly ahead. Maybe they have a 99E player waiting in the wings over there?
This is a pretty stupid argument. Neither side has released good, hard numbers. Everything including those NPD sales estimates (that haven't been 2:1 in favor of blu-ray for at least a month) are just estimates and not hard & fast sales figures of titles. Nobody knows how many players have been sold weekly (aside from # of ps3s sold in a given time frame) and nobody knows how many ps3s are used as blu-ray players.
What I would give to get 500 BD fanboys (dressed in blue) and 500 HD-DVD fanboys (dressed in red) in the same room.
It would make gladiatorial combat look like a kids karate lesson at the Y.
Excellent pay-per-view material there!
Hello Pot
This wouldn't be a problem if the PS3 didn't skew Blu-ray numbers so much.
It is the leading Blu-ray player on the market, yet its movie attach rate is horrible, so when measuring both formats it appears that Blu-ray is doing much better than it actually is in real numbers. Hence the ridiculously large gap between the hardware and software ratios when compared to HD DVD.
So in other words, Blu-ray will always appear to perform better than HD DVD in players and movies sold even if more than 50% of their players aren't actually being used as players.
Who's REALLY skewing the data here?
Only in America can a DVD format war be more important and inflammatory than the only war that should matter right now. I'm curious to know if this has made it into any late-nite talk show monologues, SNL, sitcoms, etc. The entertainment value is priceless, considering an entire forum had to be shut down and restructured over the the constant rock-throwing from either side.
I'm an HD DVD supporter, but all this negativity over how people wish to be entertained is staggering and makes me almost not want to post anything.
The BDA, what a sad bunch of whining little bitches.
They bawl their eyes out that no one will count their kiddies game console as a standalone player yet when they are counted (to produce the attachment rate) they just wail even louder.
Hypocrites.
......and losers.
The US retail industry 'called' the war already.
When Walmart went $98 HD DVD you know it's all over.
(and if HD DVD can't sell with a larger available movie catalogue (& exclusive catalogue) @ $98 then what hope for incomplete, over-priced & sub-spec Blu-ray which offers less?)
Paul,
The AVSForum as a whole wasn't shut down, only the Blu-ray and HD DVD threads, and that was in part because of physical and legal threats and in part to restate to everyone what those areas were meant for in the first place: to provide help and information about both formats.
It's also important to note that it isn't the whole world fighting tooth and nail about the two formats, only a small population of early adopters and blog/forum regulars.
It is sad though to see consumers arguing over details that really only matter to the companies on each side. For us, it should really only be about the products.
Thanks for the clarification on the forum, Griffon. However, by "people," I was indeed referring to those who have committed to either format and continue their daily musdslinging, since we all know many folks still don't know about these formats or even have an HDTV to begin with, not to mention those who think you can use either disc in any next-gen player.
If I were one of them, I'd actually be terrified to read the blogs based on some of these over-the-top responses.
The shame of it is, everyone knows that people fudge to help their side, but to simply draw out the painful death of hdvd with this stuff is pathetic. Let the format die so the owners won't waste anymore money buying into a format that won't be around...
"Let the format die so the owners won't waste anymore money buying into a format that won't be around..."
It's almost like BD fans think the more they say it, the better the chances of it actually happening are.
Sorry, HD DVD isn't going anywhere for a long time (and neither is BD, most likely).
xyzzy wrote: "Sorry, HD DVD isn't going anywhere for a long time (and neither is BD, most likely)."
What are you smok'n? You have it completely ass-backwards. Sony's committed to the PS3 for atleast 10 years so that means Blu-ray will be around for that long atleast. HD-DVD on the other hand has only support from Toshiba and Microsoft, which either can jump ship at anytime over to BD. With BD's market share dominance world wide, HD-DVD is dying faster than ever before.
Another example, Blockbuster has already doubled their rental/shelf space for BD at most stores. This shows that BD rentals are much more profitable and popular than HD-DVD rentals.