http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/ Engadget HD Comments for Competition heating up among Blu-ray player manufacturers http://hd.engadget.com/media/feedlogo.gif http://hd.engadget.com en-us Copyright 2009 Weblogs, Inc. The contents of this feed are available for non-commercial use only. Blogsmith http://www.blogsmith.com/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/Dec 18th 2007 8:43PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/Dec 18th 2007 11:29PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
scorching competition.


Or someone could do something really crazy and finalize the 2.0 profile, and then release a 1000 dollar player based on it. That would really fire up the market (especially with the PS3 still 2.0 ready and available for the low low price of 400 dollars).]]>Dec 18th 2007 8:42PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
I'm thinking more like end of 2008.]]>Dec 18th 2007 9:35PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/seriously...you must be f**king kidding. end of the decade? when you see that plays have gone from $700-1000 down to less than 300 in a little more than a year, what makes you think that they can't drop another 100 in this coming year alone...
@hd4me
i'm really surprised that you're really discrediting the efforts of samsung. they may not be making the best plays, but they sell a hell of a lot.
@Nfinity
i'm not sure if the only place you shop is your local wally world. but the vast majority of the stores that i go to usually have a larger blu ray section than hd dvd, usually 1.5:1 i've even seen 2:1 in terms of the amount of sections. So if you see hd dvd sold out and it has 1 section, but bluray has 3...that could be a bit of a reason. and there's another thing that you pointed out: the amount of ps2 sales compared to dvd sales over a 10+ year span. Of course you're going to find more f**king dvd players sold in the latter years, especially when you could start to pick them up for 40,30, $25. Look at the early years of the ps2 when ps2s were one of the cheapest dvd players you could get on the market. The disparity ratio was a hell of a lot smaller then. You=always flawed logic. And i seriously dont understand how you can even start to project sales 2 f**ckin years into the future, with a technology this new? are you nuts...You keep saying that hd dvd is all about standalone players, and that you can't depend on gaming console (PS3) to keep you afloat. Well, thats EXACTLY WHAT IT HAS BEEN DOING. In the time that the ps3 has sold millions of units, what has happened to the mean price of blu ray players? Ummm...i think they've dropped about $700 in a little over a year, and...started to really pick up steam in terms of units. Sorry, but anyone w/ a little less fanboyism than you would kiiiinda see the logic in that. If you can hold over GROUP A (customer willing to buy a PS3/early adopters/techie people who see the sheer value of a ps3 as a blu ray player over a sony standalone for the same price...who are actually buying a boat load movies because there are so many of them) until the price drops enough for GROUP B ("joe sixpack") to see it as a viable solution, you're doing just fine. As soon as you pick up more and more of that GROUP B...well, you'll be out of a job on engadgethd. ]]>Dec 19th 2007 1:31AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
A dead & very buggy Samsung v an outdated low spec old Sony?!

Like anyone besides a handful of the fanboy crew really cares.]]>Dec 18th 2007 9:03PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/]]>Dec 18th 2007 9:04PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
This is a 2 horse race, Toshiba V Sony]]>Dec 18th 2007 9:33PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
As far as Blu-Ray standalones heating up? At what prices will this competition heat up? AT $500+? Panasonic has the only Profile 1.1 SA player on the market at $500.. they announced 2 more models at higher prices.. some competition...

The only way you will see $250-$300 Blu-Ray standalones if they are on sale to get rid of obsolete models.. the newest models still hover at $500+.]]>Dec 18th 2007 10:17PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/Dec 18th 2007 10:08PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
]]>Dec 18th 2007 10:20PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/Why would you want to buy one?]]>Dec 18th 2007 11:36PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
And I'll spare you a retort, since all of you say the same ol' crap: "Wal-Mart doesn't count in Neilsen, waa waa waa"

Dream on fanboy, your "report" is not only far from reality, it's been proven wrong every single week this year when the software sales numbers come out.

Man, CES 08 can't come fast enough. Oh how I can't wait for HD-DuD to disappear and to be entertained by the new FUD people like Nfinity come up with. Warner going Blu exclusive should truly make things interesting]]>Dec 18th 2007 11:49PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/Dec 19th 2007 1:43PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
In other words: 5.7 Million Profile 1.1 Blu ray players just came online.

G'night, HD-DVD.
]]>Dec 18th 2007 11:00PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/Dec 18th 2007 11:15PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/Why do you want 1.1 profile??
I thought the extras were all a load of shit, and that all BR fanatics only wanted to watch the damn movie! ]]>Dec 18th 2007 11:37PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/Dec 18th 2007 11:49PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/Dec 19th 2007 12:49AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
The numbers will tell again friday, sorry about HDDVD's luck!!

Maybe they sell out because they only carry 10 copies in the first place?????]]>Dec 18th 2007 11:32PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/Dec 18th 2007 11:54PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/Dec 18th 2007 11:34PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
Going to be some disappointed people if Warner chooses, but Warner is heavily invested in HD DVD, and they are not going Blu. Warner owns HDDVD patents, HDDVD disc manufacturing, and was an early rejecter of Blu-ray. They started in the Red camp and went neutral only at the last minute to hedge their bets, worried about the PS3. Now that the PS3 has lost the console war, it makes no sense that they would be the ones to kill their main bet. Warner going Red-exclusive makes them so much more money. Why throw in the winning hand?

ONE (1) Business Week reporter, a guy who carries Sony's water at every opportunity and has NEVER had a HDM story of his pan out, writes that that a Blu-ray exec told him that he HEARD A RUMOR that Warner was going Blu. There has not been a word of confirmation. NO ONE else has even heard the exec say that he heard a rumor. Flying saucers over Des Moines! MUST be true.

Or as Mulder said "I Want to Believe!"

Sorry blu-kids, but that present under the tree is coal.]]>Dec 19th 2007 1:31AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/Dec 19th 2007 12:04AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
I was merely correcting Nfinity's snide (and mis-informed) comment:

"Panasonic has the only Profile 1.1 SA player on the market at $500.. they announced 2 more models at higher prices.. some competition..."

Well, now there's potentially another 5+ million Profile 1.1 players out there in the form of PS3's, some of them priced at $399. Oh wait, Nfinity meant _Standalone_ players, so we should all just ignore the PS3?

Fact is, the PS3 is having and will continue to have a HUGE impact on Blu ray sales and market share, no matter how much the HD-DVD fanboys try to ignore it or discredit it or mock it.

The HD-DVD zealots are quick to trumpet the low cost of Toshiba players - even the $99 Walmart "fire sale" which, by the way, was little more than Toshiba's desperate attempt to kickstart their dying format by dumping the low-end discontinued unit onto the market.

Yet with such great "deals" in HD-DVD hardware somehow Blu ray titles have been outselling HD-DVD titles by at _least_ a 2:1 margin ALL FREAKIN YEAR! How does one explain that phenomenon? Clearly the price of Blu ray players is not having a significant negative impact on software sales. By the same token, the (low! low! LOW! :-) ) pricing on Toshiba players doesn't appear to be having a significant positive impact on HD-DVD software sales.

Now let's talk demographics for a second. The HD-DVD camp is quick to claim victory with the "mainstream casual consumer" due to the low (low LOW!) price of the Toshiba players. After all, the Joe and Jane Sixpacks of the world couldn't possibly resist a $99 HD-DVD player, right?

Well, OK, suppose that assumption is correct and the "casual consumer" crowd is indeed drawn to the $99 HD-DVD player. I'll bet that they are going to be in for a rude awakening when their kids want to watch Pirates of the Carribean or Cars or Spiderman on that shiny new econ-box HD player. Oops! Sorry folks, you can't watch ANY Disney movies on HD-DVD, or Sony Pictures, Fox, MGM, or Lionsgate for that matter.

low cost player + casual consumer - Disney = a dead format.

It's been said over and over but the HD fanboys just don't want to accept it: The format war will be decided by content availabilty and software sales. And since day one Blu ray has had the clear advantage in both.
]]>Dec 19th 2007 12:06AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/Dec 19th 2007 12:03AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
First they complain that prices are too high, then prices go down to $299 and they say it's only "crap 1.0 profile anyway", even if most people could care less about picture in picture. Then the PS3 gets 1.1 enabled and Panasonic gets an excellent 1.1 player out, but it "doesn't count".

Not only is there going to be a slew of good anounces at the CES for Blu Ray, but Funai (well known for its entry level prices) has a stand presenting its new BD player and burner then.
Should be fun.
Oh, and I guess "Truth" & co also missed the news where a third of their standalone sales (more actually, 269k) account for a console add-on ;) Just too damn funny !]]>Dec 19th 2007 12:20AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/Dec 19th 2007 12:43AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
You guys don't have a logical, reasonable bone in your body.. all you are, are immature gamers for the most part that simply refuse to understand that mainstream = standalone player no matter how good all-in-one solution PS3 is.. A simple, fully featured HD DVD standalone player for $100-$150 is mainstream.. 10:1 ratio of people on this world uses standalone rather then a game console.. you can see that by PS2..there were 130 million PS2 manufactured within 10 years.. do you have any idea how many standalone players were sold and manufactured in those 10 years? 1 BILLION you idiot.. so it's very clear that people PREFER watching freakin' movies on a simple standalone unit where they press PLAY AND STOP.. not a game console..

That's CALLED REASON AND LOGIC.. what you freaks are trying to prove with these numbers is that game console is faster to sell in the beginning, especially since Playstation brand is more recognized over a new high-definition format. Of course that adoptation of the new hi-def format will go slower then game consoles.

But as studies show the hardware sales are picking up and mainstream consumers are indeed picking HD DVD.. by end of 2008 you can expect 4 million standalone HD DVD players sold, by end of 2009 12-16 million (that's millions and millions of consumers who only have ONE goal with their HD DVD players - to WATCH FREAKING movies and buy them) You don't think studios see that?!.. it is the path of the DVD.. the numbers so far have shown that quite clearly.

You just keep deluding yourselves that Blu-Ray has any chance of surviving in the long run. It does have a lead now thanks to a game console, but HD DVD, small prices, amazing features, incredible quality is a TRAIN that will inevitably UTTERLY BLAST through Blu-Ray and all the PS3 consoles put together.

Try to look at the history and everything is very clear.. only Sony freaks think they can win a format war with a game console.. every single analyst and individulal who has half a brain and is not a paid shill knows that the key is in standalones and understand that all Sony's hopes, like little pussies, rest now on PS3 holding them long enough so they can try to beg other CE companies to lower their prices on standalones as HD DVD is completely annihilating them in sales and will continue doing so with no mercy until every single home has an HD DVD player instead of their DVD player in homes.]]>Dec 19th 2007 12:53AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/the day blu ray releases a 'cheap Chinese' BR player onto the market I will bare my ass in main street.
blu ray has been founded "The Coalition of the Unwilling" a bunch of Japanese fat cats who see BR as an opportunity to screw the customer base with expensive players and LARGE PROFITS.
The only way they will ever license and release such a product would be long after they have sucked the consumer dry, and that's why Warner will never go blu.
BR's survival is totally linked to a games console, but HD DVD has a tidal wave of cheap Chinese main stream product just around the corner.

Do you BR fools really think Warner will go blu when they can see the fundamental principals of BR? Br is based on PS3 killing HD DVD and the BR fat cats will plod away for the next 5 years with their high profit, slow uptake policy.

It just staggers me that you blu trolls don't do some research and see the inevitable conclusion.

BR=PS3 intention kill the competition HD DVD, long slow, high profit plan for mass market adoption controlled by a japanese fat cat consortium

HD DVD=Cheap hardware to encourage fast mass market adoption with major Chinese intervention.

WARNER, mmmm hard choice that one.

Mini disc, beta, blu ray.]]>Dec 19th 2007 3:55AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
dual format players for $800 are just ridiculously overpriced. that's why lg has only captured about 1% of a tiny market -- depending on who you ask, there are about 200,000 to 400,000 stand-alone blu-ray players in the wild, so lg has sold about 3,000 dual format players for between $800 and $1,000. if lg has $3,000,000 in revenue from the unit, they are most likely losing money on the unit (besides the raw cost of the materials, lg has to pay for the engineering, manufacturing, advertising, etc.).

hd-dvd-player owners saying they want a reasonably priced dual format player isn't conceding defeat, it's just what everybody wants (or an end to the format war if that is at all possible). but i'm not going to pay $800 for a dedicated peace of hardware that is a crippled hd dvd player like the lg dual format player. lg could have come out with a $500 dual-format player and possibly sold more units than toshiba did hd dvd players, but they were just priced out of the ballpark. lg's math was if A = 200 and B = $400 then A+B=$800 ($200 for A plus $400 for B plus $200 for convenience). but the general public wanted product C (a combination of A and B) to cost $500, which would have been $100 less than buying A and B separately and had the added convenience of being a single unit.

i've spent less than $100 for my rca hdv5000 (off of ebay in "like new" condition), and i love it so far. and like most hd dvd proponents, i believe that less expensive players will gain widespread market adoption by traditional movie viewers. after all, a sizeable percentage of hdtv owners have surround sound, etc., that they want to feed with something slightly better than a $50 dvd player when they watch movies. but why should anybody want to risk more than $200 on a risky format war? sony and toshiba have cost themselves a lot of sales because the general public is confused and not willing to bet on who is going to be the 2007 version of vhs by buying into that particular format for fear that they are buying into the 2007 version of betamax. a $200 risk is more palatable than a $400 risk. and the $300 clearance blu-ray models are going to have to be replaced eventually anyways (no ethernet connection as far as i know), so they are almost obsolete right now.

panasonic has sold about 5% of all blu-ray players sold, or about 15,000 blu-ray players. sharp, philips, and pioneer have sold a negligible amount of stand-alone blu-ray players.

so many of these blu-ray players are so expensive and undesirable that they have to be "given" away with new sony and panasonic hdtv's. you could argue that this is a marketing tactic by sony or panasonic to sell more hdtv's, but i think it is a desperate move to get rid of blu-ray players. at least it is better than getting a free massage chair (valued at approximately $200) from best buy with a new hdtv purchase.]]>Dec 19th 2007 12:37AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
]]>Dec 19th 2007 12:53AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
Honestly, why do you even back HD DVD so fiercly? In the long run I think it's clear that it's better if BR wins out. In the short term HD DVD has a price advantage, but that will go away rather quickly since electronics prices always fall quickly and once either format finally makes a big surge into the mainstream the greater volume also drops prices. BR definitely stumbled by not finalizing their specs quickly enough and some early adopters are going to get burned if PiP is actually important to anyone, but I think most early adopters know this. In the long run none of that will matter either. By the time the HD format is mainstream the issues of profiles will be in the past. So what's left? Storage space. That will be the only remaining meaningful difference before too long. And simply put, more space is better... and that's BR.]]>Dec 19th 2007 1:10AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
Most PS3s are in households that have no HDTV. Tough sell there for blu-ray.]]>Dec 19th 2007 2:51AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
Thanks for the awsome post dude! A true classic. My favorite part:

"...the key is in standalones and understand that all Sony's hopes, like little pussies, rest now on PS3 holding them long enough..."


To be honest I don't really understand the "little pussies" reference here, but it's pure comedic gold nonetheless.

Promise me that in 6 months when HD-DVD is dead and gone you'll come back to this forum and enrtain us some more.

"To Nfinity...and BEYOND!" **

(btw that was a quote from a Disney movie...you might want to pick it up on standard-def DVD)
]]>Dec 19th 2007 1:15AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/Dec 19th 2007 1:58AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
(btw that was a quote from a Disney movie...you might want to pick it up on standard-def DVD)"

Funny. Problem is, you can't get Toy Story on blu-ray either. But I hear you can get it in Beta.]]>Dec 19th 2007 2:55AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
Warner could see this as a loose loose situation. On one hand they can loose the investment they had in HD-DVD but they can for all good effect end the format war, spurring the sales of DVD and HD media.

They can continue to loose movie sales and drag out the HD war hoping that consumers just pick a side and but Warner media.

If Warner went red only the war would not end and film sales could just stay damaged. If they went blu only the fight could end in a year or two.

They may be willing to write off the research costs associated with HD-DVD technology. They will not be willing to write off 15-30% of dvd sales year after year.

Sony abandoned beta, Warner has a lot less invested in HD-DVD.]]>Dec 19th 2007 1:23PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/Dec 19th 2007 10:07AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
Its funny because i can see people with blu-ray or hd dvd logos on their arm. Why oh why!?!]]>Dec 19th 2007 7:42AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
Just like the A2 being lowered in price to move it out, the A3 hasn't hit that price point again yet so to me it indicates they are just clearing stock of the non-finalized players.

I guess we'll have to wait to see where the new 1.1 players come priced at to really know.]]>Dec 19th 2007 8:21AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
I'd like a standalone 2.0 Blu-Ray player after I purchase a audio system.]]>Dec 19th 2007 9:38AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
I'm no more responsible for other people's posts than you are.]]>Dec 19th 2007 10:45AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
BTW, it's low average attach rates I was referring to. I've seen examples (again, not necessarily you) where in a discussion about movies sales the HD DVD guys will try and spin the lower HD DVD sales by saying something like, "Well, BR players only have a 1.1 attach rate, but HD DVD has a 2.0 attach rate". I made those numbers up since I don't know any attach rates off the top of my head, but that the sort of statement you'll see. When attach rates are given the HD DVD camp always includes the PS3 because it lowers the average for BR. But when talking about hardware sales the HD DVD camp always dismisses the PS3 making claims that not everyone uses it as a BR player and/or claiming that movies studios only care about standalone sales... yet the HD DVD camp magically has no problem including the 360 add-in their numbers even though it's not a standalone.

The real answer is that their is no clear way to define the PS3. Some people bought to play games only, some bought it for movies, and some use it as both. The anyone can do is make educated guesses based on surveys of the system's use. But despite the lack of clarity in how many PS3s are being used as a BR player, what is perfectly clear is that the PS3 is having a major impact on media sales. Clearly enough people are using the PS3 as a BR player to give BR a consistent advantage over HD DVD in media sales. And despite claims to the contrary, that will matter to movies studios since they sell content. They aren't going to give shit that a lot of the sales right now are coming from a device that is also a game console... HD DVD appears to have 1/3 of their sales coming from a similar device anyway. ]]>Dec 19th 2007 11:25AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
Ignore? No. But there are plenty of people who won't consider a game machine as an acceptable replacement for a standalone unit. And it's still at a significantly higher price point if you're buying solely for movie playback.

"Fact is, the PS3 is having and will continue to have a HUGE impact on Blu ray sales and market share, no matter how much the HD-DVD fanboys try to ignore it or discredit it or mock it."

That's what fanboys do. Overstate their cases. So you have one camp focusing on installed base of dedicated players and the other camp acting as if every PS3 is used as a Blu-ray player. (Until attach rates come up, of course, and then it flip flops.)

"The HD-DVD zealots are quick to trumpet the low cost of Toshiba players - even the $99 Walmart "fire sale" which, by the way, was little more than Toshiba's desperate attempt to kickstart their dying format by dumping the low-end discontinued unit onto the market."

The price reduction was done independently by Best Buy and Walmart. Toshiba made it clear they had nothing to do with the price reduction.

"Yet with such great "deals" in HD-DVD hardware somehow Blu ray titles have been outselling HD-DVD titles by at _least_ a 2:1 margin ALL FREAKIN YEAR!"

Actually, the average for the year currently stands at 1.86:1 which wouldn't be possible if they were outselling by "at _least_ a 2:1 margin ALL FREAKIN YEAR!". The ratio has actually fluctuated anywhere from 1.04:1 to 3.17:1. That overall sales can be influenced so heavily by single releases with relatively low sell-through compared to standard definition releases just goes to show that the market is nowhere near mature.

"Well, OK, suppose that assumption is correct and the "casual consumer" crowd is indeed drawn to the $99 HD-DVD player. I'll bet that they are going to be in for a rude awakening when their kids want to watch Pirates of the Carribean or Cars or Spiderman on that shiny new econ-box HD player. Oops! Sorry folks, you can't watch ANY Disney movies on HD-DVD, or Sony Pictures, Fox, MGM, or Lionsgate for that matter."

Same thing can be said the other way around in regards to Shrek the Third or Charlie and the Chocolate Factory or Transformers or the Bourne series or Star Trek. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

"low cost player + casual consumer - Disney = a dead format."

Personally I don't buy that kids movies will be the primary mover in disc sales. Children aren't known for being particular about video quality, parents are loathe to pay more for a disc that their kids are going to abuse, many times discs will be watched on a secondary (likely non-HD) set so the parents don't have to be subjected to the same frickin' movie for the fiftieth time. Not to mention that not a single car video system is high def.

"It's been said over and over but the HD fanboys just don't want to accept it: The format war will be decided by content availabilty and software sales. And since day one Blu ray has had the clear advantage in both."

Technically on day one there were no Blu-ray players or content, since HD-DVD beat them to market by a few months. :)

Peronsally I think both the HD-DVD and Blu-ray fanboys have trouble accepting that the war isn't even close to decided at this point. Blu-ray has a number of strong advantages, HD-DVD has a number of strong advantages, and disc sales have been fluctuating all year. If Blu-ray's lead in software sales had cocntined to widen as their installed base (mostly PS3) did, I would be calling it for Blu-ray, but if you look at trend out the data the lead actually peaked in August and narrowed through November. I haven't bothered plotting December data yet; there might be a bit of a swing back toward Blu-ray there owing to a few very strong weeks, but the week ending 12-02 showed HD-DVD narrowing the gap significantly (down to 1.38:1). Friday's VideoScan numbers should be interesting with Harry Potter being available in both formats.

I think a clear winner might emerge sometime in 2008. It's likely a significant number of player sales over the last couple months (including the model closeouts and "black friday" sales) are gifts, and therefore not part of the active installed base yet. Sony should hopefully manage to increase consumer awareness of the playback capabilities of the PS3. Toshiba will start building a significant base of HD-DVD equipped notebooks (projections of five million units over the calender year). Of course there could be some major announcements at CES that change things completely.]]>Dec 19th 2007 11:15AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/"... and your other Blu-ray tool buddies..."
" ... 1 BILLION you idiot.."
" ..what you freaks are trying to prove ..."
" only Sony freaks think ..."
Man, drop the shovel, you are an embarrassment to your cause.

Other talking points:

Market isn't won through gaming?
HD DVD has sold 480k standalones (750k figure - 269k add ons), and 269k console add ons.
Blu Ray has sold -at least- 400k standalones in the same time
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/12/07/us_blu_ray_sales/
(their estimte is a bit high at 600-700k, more realistically between 400 and 500k).
Only HD DVD fanboys swallow the FUD spread by Toshiba, and their little group of buddies over at AVS.
Despite what they say, Blu Ray standalones are right in the same ballpark, HD DVD having -at best- a 54/46 lead (shrinking now thanks to Samsung and Sony new prices).
Now when we factor in the PS3, HD DVD is entirely destroyed

Now, the argument that people do not buy PS3s to play movies.
It seems that now that the actual capabilities of the PS3 are starting to be known, professionals of AV even think differently :)
http://www.hometheatermag.com/news/032607rave/index.html
Of course facts and sales have also shown differently, with countless people testifying that they bought the PS3 as a Blu Ray player primarily (that will also be my case shortly. And I do not do console gaming btw).

To HD4ME, be prepared to bare it shortly after the CES :)
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/11/27/alba_readies_cheap_bd_player/
After Europe, be prepared to see those in the US, along with the Funai ones :)

To Kevin. Every Add on bought to play movies? true. But you are talking 270k add ons vs up to 40% of 2.2+ million consoles here (in the US), or close to 900k PS3s used as Blu Ray players. But according to you guy's "attachment rate", every single PS3 counts as a player, they just don't buy that many games eh? ]]>Dec 19th 2007 11:39AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
BDA says 2.7 million total BD disc devices by the end of the year, with something between 300K and 400K standalones. I assume 300K standalones and 700K PS3s (or about 30%). This accounts also for split-use PS3s. This would lead to a current 60-40 typical BD-HD split given even attach rates. Ignoring super-release weeks, this is about what we see.

Note that this is way down from where PS3 was in, say March, because HD DVD has been dpoing better, the PS3 has had troubles, and BD standalone sales are just now picking up. The war has gone from Sony's to lose, to a rough balance.

Toshiba's way forward is to flood the world with players and hope this translates to sales, and/or get Warner to come over.

BDA (or Sony which has 90+ % of players) needs to further cost-reduce the reference design, move standalones and/or get Warner to come over.

Assuming that Warner stands pat, I'm pretty sure that dual-format players are going to be the story soon and no one will care much what format something is on.]]>Dec 19th 2007 4:27PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/Dec 19th 2007 11:42AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/
A player less than 200 UK pounds

Profile 2.0 from the outset and no chance of more profiles being added

REGION FREE!!!!

The last point is so incredibly important for anyone living outside the US. We frequently get screwed on titles that we have to import from other regions, but it also works the other way round where we have better versions. We need to be able to play discs from the world over. More so when considering prices.

No region free. No sale.

And I'm not buying anything less than a *full* profile 2.0 player.


Reality is, there's fat chance of getting these wishes. Hence I'll stick with HD DVD. I know the clueless masses will buy the limited Blu-Ray players instead though :-(]]>Dec 19th 2007 12:26PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/http://hd.engadget.com/2007/12/18/competition-heating-up-among-blu-ray-player-manufacturers/HD DVD has sold 480k standalones (750k figure - 269k add ons), and 269k console add ons.
Blu Ray has sold -at least- 400k standalones in the same time
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/12/07/us_blu_ray_sales/
(their estimte is a bit high at 600-700k, more realistically between 400 and 500k)."

blu-ray players greater than 2.7 million plus sony playstation 3's greater than 2 million does not mean that stand-alone blu-ray players are 600-700k. actually the first two statements don't tell you anything about the number of stand-alone blu-ray players. this is perhaps the worst article i have ever read.

"This being said, again, despite the 90k(or 100k) units sale in three days at $99, that means that without that very sale HD DVD was standing at 380kish. Pretty much on par where Blu Ray was at the same period (around 360k). So again, under 500k standalones atm, is -very- lol imho, specially with Blu Ray probably around 400k units atm, and with (at least until recently) a much higher entry-level price."

more than 750,000 hd dvd players (including xbox add-on drives) on november 27th minus 269,000 xbox add-on drives on december 18th equates to there being more than 481,000 stand-alone hd dvd players on december 18th. to conclude that there are fewer than 500,000 stand-alone hd dvd players from those figures is not a correct assumption.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6505633.html


Wow, Greg, you keep pulling bigger and bigger numbers out of your ass. First it was 300,000, then it was 360,000, and now it is 400,000 to 500,000. Bravo, Greg, you have single-handedly sold more make-believe stand-alone Blu-Ray players (more than 200,000) on top of the ones actually sold than Sony and Samsung have managed to combined (less than 200,000).

"I believe the Digital Media Group's number of less than 200,000 stand-alone Blu-Ray player over anonymous poster Greg at EngadgetHD who says way more than 300,000 stand-alone Blu-Ray players have sold to date without anything to back it up except for the number he pulled out of his ass."

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/11/30/how-many-hd-dvd-players-does-toshiba-need-to-sell-to-just-break/3


November 27th

"The Digital Entertainment Group agrees, reporting that standalone Blu-ray player sales have not even reached 200,000 units yet."

tgdaily.com/content/view/35008/97/


December 10th

"So far, Toshiba is in the lead in terms of players, as Adams Media Research projects that it will sell roughly 578,000 machines to U.S. households by the end of 2007. In contrast, Adams Media expects Blu-ray to sell only 370,000."

nytimes.com/paidcontent/PCORG_317734.html?ref=technology


November 27th

"Tom Adams of consultancy Adams Media Research in Carmel, Calif., predicted that by the end of the year, households with stand-alone HD DVD players will total 600,000 and households with stand-alone Blu-ray players will total 400,000."

contentagenda.com/articleXml/LN706118213.html?industryid=45180]]>Dec 19th 2007 12:42PM