Ask Engadget HD: What is the future of DVD recording?
By Darren Murph 
posted Dec 26th 2007 12:00PM
posted Dec 26th 2007 12:00PM
"What is the future of DVD recording? Will high-definition DVD recording be affordable soon and if not, which of the current crop of DVD recorders performs the best?"
Looking back, we've actually tossed out a DVD recorder-based question before, and though it needn't be said, a lot has changed in 1.5 years. Currently, there are a few units that handle HD DVD / Blu-ray television recording, but most are sold outside of America and at near-stratospheric prices. As for high-def archiving, we're already seeing the prices come down to levels that laymen can wrap their heads around, but even that realm has quite some ways to go before it's ubiquitous. So, dear readers, give this (admittedly open-ended) inquiry some thought, and whichever angle(s) you choose to hit, drop those thoughts in comments below.
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[Image courtesy of PCWorld]
To h4ldol - it's true BD supports 50gb however there are very few (only one i know of) models that support 50gb burning - most only support 25gb. @$500 for the burner (and it's the Sony) it's quite a bit to bite off and buy (not too mention for either format you need the monitor, memory, and video card to support the HD burner formats!). I've been looking into either BD or HDDVD burners and the media too. I find more BD burners than HDDVD. Any others out there I'd love to hear since I'm beginning to go down this slippery slope. One thing I did not check is whether the BD-R discs are coated like the store-bought? I know that's a 'knock' against HDDVD is the protective coating. I support both formats since I"m an HD fan period...
Wow, you really are full of it? Must be one miserable life you lead. I feel sorry for you. Seek therapy, in your case, insurance will probably cover it.
"especially when $300 only gets you a 1080i/60 HD DVD player."
You just enjoy spreading lies don't you? Get a therapy, then a life.
Record on DVD? I'd suggest that DVRs, IPTV, and emerging computer capture technonolgies make this the wrong question. If you want to record optical now- use today's DVD media!
How will either new format do for playback compatibility with the installed base- remember the mess with DVD+/-R? Neither dominated, and compatibility was a problem for years.
Add the cost of raw media, and blown discs (ever use a recordable DVD?) and I'd say there's no large market for a new recordable format during a three-format war - at all!
Yep, I use HD-DVD: for playback.
Great, another BD vs HD-DVD debate. The question is not which format is better now, I think the better question is what format will be better in the future when we can get disc's for $0.50 and we can buy them in spools of 100.
My question is that in 2 to 4 years from now, which format has the greater upside for a computer user? One person mentioned that HD-DVD triple layer can be 51GB, what if BD did the same? Would it be more?
For me, I could care less about BD or HD-DVD, what I care about is how much space there is on a disc for me to use for backup. I think we all can agree on that we need something. DVD has been around for a long time. Back then 80GB was huge, now many of us have libraries approaching 1TB.
Personally, the format I want to win is the one that can store the most data. 50GB is a nice start, but what about 100GB or more? In the end, which format will be able to support the greatest capacity?
- Roger
I have a BWU-100a that i got several months ago. It burns 50GB disks without a problem. actually only records around 45GB and the single layer recording around 22.5 GB. Still haven't made one coaster at home, though some of our clients have made a few. On a 50 gb your talking about 1 coaster per 50 disks, which is pretty high, but for a business the time savings from freeing up an employee negates the extra cost.
I mostly burn 25gb disks at home. If you search, you can find single layer disks on sale for between $6-8. Still pricey since you can now find DVD-DL for less than a $1 pretty regularly, but the prices are definately coming down. I've never seen 50gb disks on sale.
The good thing is the 50gb disks are pretty much the same price/GB as 25gb when neither are on sale so that speaks well for the future as Blu-ray continues to add layers up to the 200gb max capacity.
You can find a BWU-100a on ebay for around $350 sometimes lower if your good.
As far as what the future holds. well. I think as mass production steps up prices of disks and burners will come down. By this time next year disks will run about the same price/GB retail for a SL-Blu as a DVD+R/DL( or at least very close ). Once it hits that you'll start to see regular consumers taking more interest instead of just businesses.
One thing that will help is that once the production machine's are paid off( Since Blu-ray requires new ones ), then prices should drop quickly. Blu-ray has an advantage in that since the recording layer is so close to the bottom surface, you can use a lot less of the expensive optical grade poly-carbonate and put much cheaper materials on top. The clear coating does add an expense, but not near enough to negate the savings from the optical grade poly-carbonate. This should allow SL Blu-ray disks to eventually be cheaper than SL DVD's. Of course as you add layers you'll add expense. None of the manufacturing equipment that I'm aware of that's beeing sold currently can make anything greater than a 50gb.
Regarding your BWU-100a - it's an older model and it does support 50gb. Have you tried making a back-up of a BD movie (or anything else) and seeing it if plays on a BD player (PS3 etc)?
There's nothing quite like h4ldol's class warfare to give everything the ol' "F*ck the Christmas Spirit! It's over! Time to get back to insulting people who buy HD DVD because they're a bunch of low-income asses!" kind of attitude, eh?
Of course, now that his original post has been deleted, my statement above can't be taken into the proper context. Oh, well. :/
I don't like the proprietary nature of Sony's inventions. That and that alone is the only reason I'd consider HD-DVD. I thnk that HD-DVD will be the poor man's Blu-Ray. In North America, that "poor man" is the mass market.
Sony carries a large brand association with luxury goods and conspicuous consumption. Until Sony humbles it's head to look most consumers in the eye (get off its high horse), Blu-Ray will continue having traction problems in the market.
Blu-ray is not a Sony invention. The original hardware specs for Blu-ray were actually designed by Matsushita (father of Panasonic) and JVC - the same folks who invented VHS about 3 decades ago. Sony has only financial stakes on the technology - but it doesn't own the most important BD patents.
if high def disc recording ever explodes like it did in Japan here in the USA, I would have to assume VHS Part 2, simply because you can record way longer on a 25GB disc as opposed to a single layer 15GB disc (Single layer discs are not only cheaper but ussually the norm in recording.) But lets be realistic (something h4idol is never)disc recording in the USA has an uphill battle against Tevo and other DVR systems. Americans love hard disk based recording. Its that simple.
"Looking back, we've actually tossed out a DVD recorder-based question before, and though it needn't be said, a lot has changed in 1.5 years."
it has? I have a liteon (forgot the model number) DVD recorder. Quality is mediocre and reliability has always been dicey. The recorder is about 3 years old. Has dvd recording really improved in the past few years? With the advent of HDM, I have little interest in spending $100-200 on a new DVD recorder to see that the tech actually has improved.
If HD-DVD or Blu-ray recorders provide HD-DVD/Blu-ray level PQ in the recordings, that's a big step up right there. (DVD recording is barely better than VHS level as far as I can tell). And reliability in burning a disc & playing it back on other players should be better.
I don't know what you're using for burning software but I've used my DVD-DL burner for a few years now and the quality burned is the same PQ as the original DVD (I back up my DVD's) and the Audio is also spot-on.
@wryker
(previous post appears to be missing)
http://www.videohelp.com/dvdrecorders/lite-on-lvw-5115ghc/1365
that's the model I have. Reading the reviews, my PQ problems with recordings likely stems from the fact that the tuner appears to royally suck. But I also had a cyberhome recorder model that was not any better, so my question stands... have DVD recorders really improved in PQ?
I've also been using a DL burner for a while now to backup movies and PQ is great for a DVD. LiteOn isn't exactly a great brand, decent but not great. You can buy new great DVD burners now for less than $50. you can also get cheap DL disks from www.shop4tech.com I get the Matrix Disks. Rarely have a problem. you can also search on google for shop4tech coupons and get a 10% discount.
No - DVD burners can not improve the PQ, they merely mimic whatever quality you input into it. You put a crappy signal/PQ in - you'll get a crappy DVD burned.
I see - you're using a standalone DVD burner to your TV etc. I've used a Phillips (to record an additional TV show if the TiVo was already recording) and it worked well. As stated in my other post to yours: DVD recorders do NOT increase the PQ - merely mimic whatever source you're putting in. Crappy pic in means a crappy DVD burned.
@wryker
Thats the thing. If DVD recorder's tuners are still teh suck or if the players inputs still result in some really crappy input, the results are going to suck.
As it applies to HDM, there's not going to be much in the way of component or HDMI inputs, leaving us with only recording HDTV. Again, if the tuners suck, BD or HD-DVD recorders will still be inferior models.
I have been using 8.5GB DL DVD's for burning OTA HD and from my Sony HD camcorder. The ability to record in HD-DVD format on red laser media is why I purchased an HD-DVD player over Blu-Ray. I wanted a simple way TODAY for the family to be able to view our recordings without down converting to SD (Why buy an HD camcorder just to watch in SD?). Blu-Ray burners, media and players were way too expensive. I can get 2 hours of OTA 720p HD on a single DVD-9 disc, a little less for 1080i OTA, and a bit over an hour of home video. On occassion I have to split a recording on to 2 DVD's. Minor inconvenience.
I don't really care who wins the format war, as I don't have much invested into HD-DVD (just one player that does an excellent job upscaling regular DVD's) but I have to say I'm leaning towards HD-DVD. Seems to be a more flexible solution, has the DVD forum backing, etc. PQ is the same. 50GB/51GB media seems like a way to cram more advertising crapola on a disc, not really a direct benefit to the consumer. 25/30GB seems plenty big with such reference titles like Planet Earth. I can see the 50/51GB media being necessary if they eventually go above 1080p, like 1440p.
That's actually one of the best arguments I've heard. Though you might feel different once the price of Blu-ray media comes down to something a regular consumer can afford. Is there a reason why this can't be done for Blu-ray?
Don't forget that the 51GB disk is read-only. Stated right there on the DVD Forum's approval( not directed at you btw, but anyone who decided to jump in ). So it won't be available for data storage.
@bob p.
I think if you look in wikipedia's entry for blu-ray there was talk about a blu-ray disc format that was compatible with DVD burnable media but either it's been dropped, or it just simply hasnt gotten very far. Once I reinstall vista and get my tivo running, I'll be enjoying using 3X DVD to back up tv media.
Wryker
I also am a fan of HD period, and actually have both blu-ray AND HD DVD players, so kudos to you and me. I agree that one of the best features of blu-ray, and one most frequently ignorantly assailed by HD DVD fanboys, is the protective coating. Say whatever you want about the necessity of it for blu-ray discs due to information residing closer to the reading surface, but the fact is that the coating is a huge advantage over HD DVD. HD DVD, like DVD, can easily get scratched up and consequently become unreadable. Anyone who rents from Netflix knows the frustration of trying to play a sandpapered DVD, and this is what is going to happen to HD DVD as well. Wasted time and money trying to rent HD DVDs online or in the store.
But as to whether or not BD-Rs will have the coating as well, I suspect not since the layer most likely would interfere with the writing of the disc and probably is applied after the discs are pressed in the factories. But who knows, I certainly don't. It would be nice though.
I've never had a problem with scratches on my DVDs. It doesn't seem to be a huge issue that I know of. I have ZERO problems with scratches on my HD DVD's. I don't use a pick to it and try scratching one. The coating is their because of how very easily a Blu-Ray disc can be scratched otherwise. If it wasn't for the coating, you would have ended up with the Disc's in cases which was what was happening early on with Blu-Ray before they starting using the coating. Scratch a CD, DVD, HD DVD and you can normally fix your disc anyway. I just really see this as a non-issue. It seems silly that the Blu-Ray fanboys point this out to me at least. As a person who owns copy's of Hundreds of Movies, Not 1 problem with scratches on any of my disc's. Never a problem on any movies rented from Blockbusters and other places. If anything the coating is just a quick and cheap fix for the Blu-Ray design flaw. That's how I see it.
@Wryker
No. Never tried. At this point it's just not worth the effort. I have been able to record the few HD football games that I could get over the air and burn them onto a 25gb Blu-ray, which worked great.
As for your other question on the clear coat. Yes it can be applied to burnable disks. It's a clear coat and wouldn't interfere with the process any more than the optical grade poly-carbonate would.
If you're going to write a reply to this post, at least talk about blu-ray's advantages as it pertains to "DVD recording".
The higher capacity of Blu-ray should mean you can record more HDTV on fewer discs. I've never used a BD recorder though (do they exist? I don't mean PC drives that do this, I mean recorders for your home theater.) My experience with DVD recorders has been less than steller and I'd hope HDM would be a better experience. Buffer underruns, coasters and discs unusable in other players should be a thing of the past.
Until HD-DVD or Blu-ray recorders come down significantly, there's always the option of D-VHS. Backward compatible with your existing VHS and SuperVHS tapes (and can record to those formats as well), and can also do 50GB of 1080i on a $20 tape. There's even a small library of commercial movies in the format, but I think the real attraction is in taping HDTV content without downgrading PQ or busting the bank.
Lots of people have DVD/VCR combos. What happens when they upgrade their disk player to HD-DVD, Blu-ray, or both (via the Samsung or LG dual-format players)? It makes sense to also upgrade your tape player, and make it the last one you'll ever need.
I believe Panasonic was the first to market D-VHS recorders in the USA. Since Matsushita also supports Blu-ray, the idea of Panasonic releasing a D-VHS-recorder/BD-player combo unit anytime isn't farfetched. (I even once owned a VHS-recorder/DVD-player combo unit by Panasonic, before I dug my hands into a region-free HDMI DVD player by Samsung and later a used yet excellent Panasonic S-VHS recorder.) But the real stunner of all would be Panasonic releasing a monster DLP-HDTV/D-VHS/BD combo set. (Remember that Tau flatCRT-TV/VHS/DVD set from some years ago?)
"always the option of D-VHS"...that was a very good comment! One-time burns to optical are good for stuff you want to keep, but how many off-air recordings qualify for anything but short-term retention?
DVHS- cheap tape, reuse as needed. DVR- just needs an archiving solution! Burnable optical- better for the computer user.
you are just pathetic!
Crutchfield is selling the 1080p/24 HD-A30 for $249 right now (was $149 in the morning promo).
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-s0v58sbrXyF/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?i=052HDA30&search=toshiba+a3&tp=171&pfxid=k1971
So point me to the price/feature superiority. BTW, where the profile 1.1 support in your $300 BD player, or if you really want to match HD-DVD features, where is there a 2.0 profile BD player in existence?
huh waha?!? the A30 for $150?!??! from crutchfield this a.m.!??!
Technically the PS3 meets 2.0 specifications. Just depends on when Sony wants to throw the switch.
So lets see, 25GB vs 15GB, uh blu wins, 50GB vs... none? there's no double layer hd dvd media? oh well, blu wins again.
Also slot load slimline bluray drives for your notebook via panasonic and just about every manufacturer is making a blu-ray burner but almost no one is making a hd dvd burner... hmmm... looks like there is no question. blu-ray has all the votes.
Not that 2.0 support mattered as your not going to see any Blu-Ray movies released with that format support any time soon. Hell 1.1 support will be pretty slim as it is. You can't piss off a bunch of people buying your movie and not able to access the content on the disc they paid for. Customer Complaints are never a good thing. Most movies I think for quite a while will continue to release to the lowest common Denominator, which is 1.0. That's one of the major problems with this whole Profile garbage. Who knows when Blu-Ray profile 2.0 players are out and supporting all the features HD DVD is doing now since day one of release. Maybe 2 or so years from now if Blu-Ray is still around, we might start seeing profile 2.0 disc's being released, maybe.
I keep hearing how Blu-Ray fanboys keep saying No one ever bothers with any of that extra garbage, and yet they keep spending time and money adding extra content to DVD's. Even doing re-Releases, over and over again. The movies hasn't changed usually, and yet people buy the new version of it, and then again. Instead of just throwing it all on the disc right away and sell it from the beginning. They know people will buy another copy at full price, maybe even pay a bit more and get the extra stuff! Right now HD DVD has a lot of extra content and it works on every single HD DVD player out there. You people think that the people who Came out with the DVD format, and thought Umm, lets throw these extra features in for the hell of it? Not because people want the extra stuff, requested things to do on DVD that wasn't possible but now is on HD DVD. Myself, I like all the cool Next Gen features HD DVD supports and use them myself. If all I was getting was a better picture, why bother with a new format, I can just VOD HD movies or download HD movies from LIVE and see just the movie in HD and that's it. That's Blu-Ray right now to me. A plain HD Movie player. Oh boy, nothing else to get excited about.
For Movies, Space isn't everything! HD DVD works great for HD movies. You need space for Data storage, there you go, have you Blu-Ray for that.
@ JBDragon.
"You need space for Data storage, there you go, have you Blu-Ray for that." And recording is what this whole article is about so thanks for finally getting back on topic with that last post. Too bad you had to spew all that off topic HD DVD fanboism FUD before you got there.