Poll: Can your setup do both next-gen audio formats?
By Ben Drawbaugh 
posted Jan 3rd 2008 2:31PM
posted Jan 3rd 2008 2:31PM
With all the talk of the PS3's inability to take advantage of the benefits of DTS HD yesterday we got to thinking, how many people can actually enjoy both of the latest codecs? While it's easy to just say my setup can do X and that's good enough, the problem is that most titles don't give you a choice when the studios don't opt to include both a TrueHD and DTS HD sound track. So compatibility isn't as much about choice as it is about not having to default to the 1.5Mbps compressed audio from the 90's because your setup can't decode both.
Well, I've got the Samsung 5K "Duo", so I don't have any working advanced codecs (yet), but I do have both VIDEO formats and the promise of everything audio via analog 5.1. The purple part being a little bit more important to me. (Note: Separate players and/or HDMI won't work in my system unless I replace my $1500 AVR.)
BTW: It's amazing how silly the format war seems once you've gone purple.
I've got an Onkyo 805 which is full HDMI 1.3 w/ built-in TrueHD & DTS-MA decoding. But my BD player is a PS3 which has to PCM everything across HDMI.
Well, I guess I'm not as far behind the crowd as I thought (being Toslink only). I have HD DVD and Blu-Ray, but I'm getting along just fine with my circa 2000 Sony STR-DA333ES receiver. 5.1 DD & DTS is just fine for me. The jump from SD to HD is worth, to me, a lot more investment than 5.1 to 7.1 lossless.
Right behind you one that one. With a family of kids, the oldest of which is only 7 and the newest only 10 months, I can't really be blasting my audio system anyway. As far as I'm concerned my DD 5.1/DTS provides all of the sounds quality that I need to enjoy a movie. I'd much rather put the extra money from getting a less expensive receiver into a bigger screen and more HD media.
Ben, your elitism is blatantly obvious here, particularly the belief that because a codec is old and "only" 1.5 Mb that isn't somehow unacceptable. Monaural or low-bitrate DD/DTS is unacceptable, but that's all based on how the disc is mastered and encoded. There is absolutely *nothing* wrong with the technology itself. Just because "regular" DD/DTS is dated doesn't mean that it has to be scorned, but that's exactly what you're implying.
So, if that means that I'm stuck in 1999, so be it. I'm content with that. It sure as hell beats the days when we didn't even have surround sound. Hell, being stuck in 1999 just gives me an excuse to say that I'm actually 29 years old. :P
WallyB,
Its the jump from 5.1 to 5.1 Loseless or compressed lossless that will knock your socks off. Huge difference my man, huge difference.
i have some nice klipsch reference and i too felt dts/dd was perfect. But if your speakers are good enough, you'll notice. I was skeptical until i heard uncompressed sound on a friend's setup with equally nice speakers.
Not everyone can, which is fine. And if you have a $200 theater-in-a-box, you'll do ok without it.
Can someone point me to something that explains the differences and why I should care? I have HD and Blu-Ray, both of which I connect via HDMI and optical. I'm not sure if that is the way to go or should I be doing something different?
I went with blu ray because of LPCM movies. I have almost forgotten how DVDs sound in comparison. I didnt think studios would waste time with audio compression anymore because of the 50GB of space. Looks like I was wrong.
You should be glad they're moving away from it for two reasons:
1) LPCM is a bandwidth hog compared to lossless. Dropping LPCM allows more bandwidth for video, in theory anyway. This may not make much of a difference if MPEG2 is used.
2) LPCM is only raw data, and the metadata possibilities inherent in the lossless codec most prevalent on Blu-ray right now could allow you to do cool stuff like speaker remapping:
"Home theater systems are often set up with different speaker layouts, sometimes dictated by room dimensions or furniture placement. DTS-HD Audio includes a 7.1 Speaker Layout feature, which allows the user to select from multiple speaker layouts depending on listening preferences and speaker location. 7.1 Speaker Layout uses sophisticated algorithms to electronically 'reposition' speakers and is designed to let you play back the audio as the artist originally intended. The DTS-HD 7.1 Speaker Layout feature works for 6.1 or 7.1 channel configurations."
http://www.dtsonline.com/dts-hd/dtshd-speaker-remapping.php
I have a Toshiba XA2 and Denon AVR 988. All audio codecs supported either by onboard decoding or bitstreaming to the AVR.
Absolutely, my setup sounds great via toslink or SPDIF via coaxial RCA in Dolby Digital 5.1.
Why does everyone all of the sudden need 2 speakers behind you and 2 behind and beside you when there's only three across the front from where most sound eminates? This seems a bit nuts to me.
That said, I can't wait to get my Marantz SR 8002 with HDMI 1.3. ALLLLL digital passthrough (or sampling of analog sources) with one cable to my display. Awesome.
My new Onkyo TX-SR705 just arrived today and I can't wait to get home and set it up. Now, if it weren't for that silly format war...
Ben:
This poll needs some refining, I'm afraid.
First, there are actually 4 new audio codecs: Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TruHD, DTS-HD Master Audio, and DTS-HD High Resolution (which is lower bitrate than DTS-HD MA), and there are no players that will do all of those. There are currently no HD-DVD players that internally decode DTS-HD (either MA or HR); likewise, there are currently no Blu-Ray players that internally decode DTS-HD MA (Pioneer has one upcoming that isn't released yet). Thus, the first two entries in the poll are erroneous. No matter whether you have an HD-DVD player or a Blu-Ray player, you can't have one that can decode ALL of the codecs and then pass to a receiver, either via HDMI or analog.
Second, the option "PCM only via HDMI" is misleading. I'm assuming you mean PCM 2.0 via HDMI; but actually, anyone who is not using bitstreaming via HDMI 1.3 is transmitting PCM (LPCM, technically) via HDMI. The player decodes the codec internally and then passes 5.1 discrete audio channels via PCM over HDMI to the receiver. Alternatively, you could just opt to use the PCM 2.0 soundtrack that is included on the disk. Both are "PCM over HDMI," but the effect is 5.1 channels vs. 2.0 channels (ie, day vs. night).
Jake,
Thanks for the correction. I forgot that there weren't any Blu-ray players that couldn't decode DTS-HD MA internally.
As for the PCM, I mean 5.1 PCM, not 2.0.
That's a good callout Jake.
There isn't a single HDM player that can decode both formats internally so that makes the first two options invalid. Makes me wonder what the over 100 votes for those categories think is going on in their home theater.
Jake, I was going to type up a long explanation about how this poll should be revised, but I think you hit most of my points.
I think it's a mistake to promote the ideal setup being players sending advanced codecs via bitstream to receivers that then decode this signal. I used to believe this, until I had an epiphany recently. The thinking that all processing must happen in the receiver is a remnant of the last transition, from analog audio connections to Dolby Digital/DTS. At that time, it was virtually a MUST that you send the bitstream from your LaserDisc (and later DVD) player to your receiver, since the receiver had to decode the compressed signal to have true discrete surround sound. Alternatively, you could have the player decode the signal but had to deal with 6 (potentially inferior) analog connections to your receiver.
Now, however, it's just as good (or better) to have the decoding happen in the player and the surround audio sent via PCM over HDMI. It's still a digital audio connection to the receiver, so there will be no quality loss, and of course it will send the full discrete channel surround sound signal. The HD formats have support for live mixing of audio, and to do this you're going to have to have that decoding done within the player!
Am I missing anything here?
lossless soundtracks are a bigger deal than 7.1. Don't get the idea these new formats don't matter unless you've got 7.1- the sound quality upgrade you get with them is just as real with 5.1.
My HDMI receiver can get TrueHD from my HD-A2 HD DVD player, but I can only get uncompressed PCM with my Samsung BD-P1200 Blu-ray player.
Metadata :)
Region Free HD baught up a good point. Now here is a good question about internal decoding, does your players internal decoder ignore metadata and just decode and output LPCM?
Good point.
Although, I may be wrong about the speaker remapping being dependent on DTS-HD metadata. The website wasn't too clear on that. Now I'm starting to think that maybe this is a receiver DSP mode, similar to DTS Neo:6.
Panny30, HD-A35 and TX-SR605 from Onkyo... i'm wired for sound.
Totally agree with elvisizer.
I was pretty sceptical (having enjoyed SACD & DVD-Audio and been used to DD & DTS) with my receiver.
But I have to say (thanks to analogue connections) Dolby True HD from my Toshiba HD EP35 (the Euro version of the HD A35) is simply stunning, a really noticeable step up in crystal clarity and sheer uuumph.
IMO because of this the HD A35/EP35 is well worth the little bit extra over the HD A3 or the HD A30/EP30.
No doubt the same applies to the HD XA2 as well - and the Onkyo DV-HD805 when it arrives.
My Pioneer 94 decodes the audio as does the Toshiba 35 so I am able to do it either way.
I'm just waiting for a nice deal on an Onkyo TX-SR705. I'm bumping a 6 yr old Kenwood (yes, Kenwood) VR-407 that's almost on its last leg. Trying my best to be frugal right now.
Tell me if I got a good deal.
Bought an Onkyo TX-SR705 from Amazon last weekend for $610. I also had a $50 Amazon gift card that the boss gave me, so I picked this receiver up for $560.
I then went to the Electronics Expo the following day and got a Boston Acoustics HS-225 center channel, 2 HS-450 front speakers, 4 Infinity Primus P152 bookshelf speakers for surrounds, and an Infinity PS212 subwoofer for $980. I haven't been able to find reviews for the HS speakers anywhere.
my sony str-dg910 can't do either of the HD formats, so I need to do it in player.
Just got a Yamaha RX-V661 to hook up to my HD-A2. I have only watched one movie in TrueHD so far. My main objective was to get SACD and DVD-Audio (from Pioneer DV-48AV) to stream digitally so that the bass management would finally be done correctly. DSD sounds awesome now with much better bass.
While I can't remember the woman who said but it applies here...
"There's no difference between men, just wallet sizes" - We should have all realized that Ben may just be highlighting the discrepancy from what the producers of the equipement promised the consumer and what they,in fact, deliver...
And, naturally - comments concerning from yesterdays PS3 debate and today's poll reflect that most people would rather argue about details and wallet size rather than acknowledge that manufacturers are exploiting the HMDI1.3a debate/standard confusion and not addressing the interoperability/quality marketed.
How ironic that Toslink, created by none other than Toshiba (aka The Red Menace to PS3 owners, ha ha) has the most repsonses. Uh oh, should I have let the cat out of the bag?
Jokes aside, although I don't own a PS3, 5.1 Toslink from any source is good enough for my ears. Just give me bullets whizzing by either ear and a couple of explosions that blow'd up real good and I'm set. It sounds even cooler with Pioneer 5.1 wireless headphones, which doesn't disturb the family or the neighbors.
Fear not, as this year's crop of AVR's are going to be very nice and much less expensive than the last couple of years. May and June 2008 should be a good time to buy. So if you are looking now, hold off a few months on the AVR.
For the record I am cruising along with my JVC RX-884v receiver and my Pioneer DV-414 DVD player. i would have upgraded already, but my living room could not be any less home theater friendly.
The Denon receiver I want is $1150, so for now I'm still rocking the Toslink.
thanks to my onkyo tx-sr605 i can do both. now just for that pesky HDTV and HD-DVD/Blu-Ray player....
Got a Denon 3808CI with a PS3 running PCM for Bluray and an XA-2 set to bitstream to my AVR. Come on Sony pick up the slack and either give us DTS-MA decoding, or bitstream via HDMI, or tell us the PS3 will never output full DTS-MA so we can buy ourselves a new BD standalone.
Im running a 5.1 over optical to my old jvc reciever. I dont have the room to place 2 speakers behind my couch (its against a wall) so 7.1 is out of the question and I cant justify buying a new reciever just to upgarde from dts/dd to dtshd/dd truehd. Personally I wouldnt even spend $10 to upgarde. whats wrong with compressed sound? I have heard a few losseless tracks before and I cant even tell the difference in sound at all. As long as I have 5.1 surround so the behind sfx can actually come from behind instead of muffling the voices and sounds from the front speakers, im gold. Ill probably stick with 5.1 toslink for at least the next 6-7 years.
I'm sticking with my trusty Philips DVD player with DivX. =)
You guys outta do a story about how most people still don't understand either of the hi-def audio formats.
I dont have a receiver yet but I have both formats so there should've been a poll option for that, heh. I believe I will wait and see if some receivers drop in price or improve in quality/features before dropping 400 or so on one. I'd buy an Onkyo 605 "real soon now" but I'm gonna wait it out and see if the 705 or 805 get more affordable or if a better option comes out.
I would love to have uncompressed Dolby TrueHD and DTS but I bought a Pioneer receiver with Dolby 7.1 about 2 years ago. I doesn't even have HDMI. I figure once the price comes down to something reasonable I'll get one of the new THX certified ones. damn all of us slow adopters!
i agree, i think more than 5.1 channels is overkill. but i wouldn't underestimate the effectiveness of the occasional surround channel bullet or the sound of a storm in the rears.
Man, I'm so far behind I had to look up Toslink in the wiki. I always wondered what that little port was.
=P
I think people are missing the point. It's not about 7.1 vs 6.1 vs 5.1. In fact most movies out are still 5.1.
The point is LOSSY compressed audio vs LOSSLESS audio (compressed or uncompressed).
I have a PS3 and a HD-A35 with a 7 yr old Pioneer AVR. Luckily the AVR has 5.1 analog inputs and the HD-A35 has 5.1 analog outputs. So the HD-A35 does DD, DD+, DTS, and Dolby TrueHD decoding and passes it through to the AVR. I wasn't sure if I would notice a difference, but I have to say "wow". At first I thought maybe it was just louder, but no, it's an big increase in dynamic range (more frequencies presented), it added more "depth" to the environment (more things to hear), I closed my eyes and enveloped myself in the ambiance... yeah, corny, but it was an experience.
As for DTS-HD. Not too many films with that either, and if it does have, I'm out of luck 'cause the A35 doesn't decode it internally. I'm out of luck with the PS3 and uncompressed PCM tracks and Blu-ray in general 'cause the PS3 only has Optical and HDMI and my AVR doesn't do HDMI and Optical can't handle the new formats nor does my AVR.
So, what's the point to my ramblings? You don't need a new AVR to appreciate the new formats (at least DD+ and TrueHD and maybe DTS-HD HR). If you have 5.1 inputs on your AVR (good chance of it) and your player has an internal decoder with 5.1 outputs(like the A35) you can at least enjoy some "TrueHD" now.
I've got a Denon 3808ci and a A2. So I could have my AVR decode but I'd have to upgrade my HD-DVD or buy a B-Ray that would do it. At least I can get them via PCM over HDMI, with the player decoding for me.
It's so painful to read this blog sometimes. My HD rig? A 20" iMac with what HD video I can find.
I can't wait to have a real setup someday. Until then, I keep reading E:HD!