Pioneer promises pricey new Blu-ray players in 2008
By Richard Lawler 
posted Jan 5th 2008 5:46PM
posted Jan 5th 2008 5:46PM
Even with high def player prices slipping almost daily, Pioneer promises to launch Blu-ray players for both more and less than its current $999 BDP-95FD. No specifics, so whether it will match Denon's behemoth players in price is TBD, but BD Live-compatible hardware is definitely on its way in 2008. Pioneer thinks its build quality and specs will keep customers coming even at the higher price, and really, would you put a no name player next to that shiny new Kuro?
Better get used to high priced BR hardware, this will be the norm now that BR has got the anti consumer dominance it has spent $billions on trying to achieve.
I agree! Now that BluRay is the only format around, prices will skyrocket! There's plenty of examples of similar things! Look at the way DVD player prices stayed high forever since they were the only format! Look at the prices of cars once they no longer had horses and carriages to compete with! Look at the price of knives and forks in the US since chopsticks never caught on!
I'll grant you that HD-DVD and BluRay did compete with each other. But they also hurt each other pricewise -- with the consumer confusion over 2 formats, fewer people bought either format. Therefore, fewer players were produced and the "economies of scale" didn't kick in very much. Cheap Chinese players haven't really appeared for either format yet (yes, there was that one HD-DVD player, but I believe it was determined that it had Toshiba guts).
The real competition will come when 20 manufacturers are making BluRay players. The best kind of competition comes when many manufacturers are making very similar, compatible products -- now when the consumer has to choose between two incompatible things. With DVD players, you can buy a $20 special, or if you really want you can probably still find a $1000 audio/videophile gold-plated wonder -- but they'll all play the same disks and plug into your TV. With cars, you can choose a cheap Kia or a pricey Ferrari, but you know that both will fit in your garage and drive down the same roads. With knives and forks, you can get disposable plastic crap all the way up to designer pricey stuff, but they'll all cut your food and fit in your mouth.
With one "format," consumers will be confident in it, and manufacturers will know it's time to invest in big-scale production. Some will aim for uber-cheap, some will aim for designer high-prices.
I see this playing out very similar as the DVD transition:
At first, DVD's and DVD players were more expensive than VHS. As DVD became more popular and more mass-produced, prices dropped. Soon, prices dropped enough, became cheaper than VHS, and VHS died. Try to find a VCR now -- if you're lucky, you'll find 1 or 2 models, and they'll both be over $100, compared to easy-to-find $30 DVD players.
The trouble, though, was that (if my observations are correct), DVD media prices have gone back up a little lately -- instead of new releases being around $15 like they often were 2-3 years ago, many come out at $20-25, with only a brief sale for $16-18. Even crappy movies ("I Know Who Killed Me") come out at prices I wouldn't want to pay for a major blockbuster.
So, my conclusion is that BluRay's useful competition was never really HD-DVD. It's DVD that'll drive BluRay prices down as BluRay tries to kill off DVD. BluRay will get cheaper and cheaper, become super cheap for a little while as a killing blow to DVD. Basically, BluRay players in 2 years or so will probably hit the $30-40 range, and movies will be easily found for $10-15. When DVD finally disappears, BluRay players will stay cheap, but the media will be consistently in the $15-30 range.
Of course, this would all be contingent on DVD actually dying out, and downloadable media not becoming the "real" format of choice too soon.
The story would be similar if HD-DVD became the format of choice...
@EQC
yeah, thats all well and good in the normal retail world, but the BDA is a cartel that works together to price fix.If you cant see that then you are just not looking.
The plan was for PS3 to fu*k HD DVD which it has just done and the blu cartel will maintain price fixing, and mark my words, we will be stuck with high pricing for a very long time.
IMO BR will now NEVER become main stream, sony and the cartel will hold that pricing high for a few years and BR will become niche market.
This WILL NOT create main stream adoption and DVD will remain the dominant force until downloading or some other format comes along.
Everyone is saying we need one format, i say bullshit. Competition is what HD needs and mainstream adoption has been poor because of DVD, not HD DVD. DVD upscaled onto a plasma or LCD is brilliant, and the best way forward IMO opinion is with cheap hardware and lots of competition so Joe Schmo will change from DVD. Why would he now, $500+ for a DVD player, no thanks, the one i have now is fine.
You are delusional if you think the blu cartel will now start competing with each other, FOFLMFAO, they didn't do it before, they have much less reason too now.
This is a tragic day for the consumer.
Can you explain to me exactly why the manufacturers of BluRay are any different than the DVD Forum or the backers of HD-DVD?
DVD had no other "digital video" format to compete with for a long time, and prices fell. Why, as the only "HD video" format, would BluRay prices stay high? If HD-DVD was the only HD format, would they have raised prices up again?
You've called BluRay's group a cartel -- do you have some reason for doing that without laying the same name on the DVD forum or HD-DVD's group? If it all comes down to the price of BluRay players, then that means very little -- all it means was that Toshiba (the only HD-DVD manufacturer) was willing to take a loss and sell players at $100-200 with 10 free movies... If I was irrational, I'd call that a desperate move to force/bribe the public into choosing HD-DVD -- doesn't it sound sinister when I word it like that? Like, if the move had worked and they had won, then they would've jacked up prices?
Look, everybody hates Sony. Likewise, most people hate Microsoft (who wrote the interactivity software for HD-DVD, and likewise stands to profit from it...and look at the price of Windows Vista ZOMG!!!!! (sarcasm) ). But both groups are made up of more than just one company.
For example, the BluRay Association, according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc_Association) has a board of directors including (among many other groups) 10 CE manufacturers: Hitachi, LG, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, and Thomson. Look at the wikipedia page -- that's just half of the Board of Directors. The "Contributors" and "Members" of the BDA include tons more major companies.
Wait a second. Gus, did you just say that the BDA's INTENTION is to price its product out of mainstream adoption? Seriously? You can't really mean that, can you?
EQC rightfully laid the smackdown on your weak-ass "argument."
"All of this technology was figured out long before the 1980s, but it was bulky and incredibly expensive. What happened in the 1980s was the development of the mass-produced video cassette, cheap manufacturing in Asia and cheap microprocessors to control everything. With those three things in place, VCR prices could fall below the magic $1,000 mark."
When did everyone earn the right to own the highest quality player for $99?!?
You get what you pay for.
Pioneer has always made pricey stuff...it's called ELITE.
Wow...this is amazing, you throw a headline like that out there and then in the story you write:
"Pioneer promises to launch Blu-ray players for both more and less than its current $999 BDP-95FD."
If Bluray stays at a high price, nobody will buy it. Why would they continue to keep the price inflated?
Already, Amazon has two for one deals on Bluray media. It's a matter of time before hardware manufacturers lower the price of hardware. I remember $700 DVD players. I remember $600 VHS players. Give it a break already. I see a $99 Bluray player in 2009.
you realize that this is 2008 right, not 2009?
Pioneer Elite has never gone after the lower-priced seeking consumer. Pioneer Elite are among the best products you can buy, inside and out. Where cheaper machines might use plastic, Pioneer might use metals, many differences. I have owned Pioneer Elite receivers before and they are the best in my opinion. They're not going to tarnigh their good name for a cheapo player.
As for the comment by Gus, that's really funny. If you know how business works, you know that there is more profit in quantity, and blu-ray players are not going to go up in price just because Blu wins the war. That's not clear thinking at all. They want the market flooded with blu-ray players, so your friends and neighbors dip in. There's no way prices are going to rise. Players by Denon and Pioneer Elite will always be higher priced and will always be the best.
"mntwister
@ Jan 5th 2008 6:39PM
As for the comment by Gus, that's really funny. If you know how business works, you know that there is more profit in quantity, and blu-ray players are not going to go up in price just because Blu wins the war. That's not clear thinking at all. They want the market flooded with blu-ray players, so your friends and neighbors dip in. There's no way prices are going to rise. Players by Denon and Pioneer Elite will always be higher priced and will always be the best."
That's an interesting observation considering the price of the least expensive player just increased from 299 to 399.
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&categoryId=27898
"Pioneer Elite are among the best products you can buy, inside and out."
I wouldn't go that far. While it is true, Pioneer Elite products are higher end, but they are not the best products you can buy, not by a long shot. You may be able to say that they are some of the best you can buy for the average to mid-average consumer. Pioneer Elite is nothing compared to companies in the high-end to the super high-end, like: Anthem, Krell, NAD, Mark Levinson, Bryston, Runco, Brunco, ect...
Their Elite TVs have always been known as some of the best, I will give you that. Their receivers have made great strides, but about 5 ago, people in the know with HT wouldn't have really considered a Pioneer (Elite or not) for their system. Now they are an option, but Denon, marantz and Onkyo to name the main ones are up there and it is more personal preference as to amp sounds and features you are looking for. As for their DVDs, their optics have always been known to be top notch, but as of lately other companies have put out DVD players that are better for the money, like Denon or better yet... the Oppo
No high end Blu-ray players for me until the BDA finally finishes with their profiles.
I am just hoping to snag a Panasonic DMP-BD30K (the only Blu-ray player mostly worth owning if you don't want a game system that can play Blu-rays but the remote doesn't play nice with universal and home automation systems) in a bit for $300 or less.
I did thoroughly enjoy my Pioneer Elite DVD player back in the day.
I won't have anything to do with that rushed out into the marketplace, unfinished, DRM infested format. I'll NEVER, EVER, buy a Blu-Ray movie disc! Period. I'll continue to buy DVD's and watch HD content from my HD cable box and Xbox LIVE service.
There's now no incentive to lower prices like they have been on Blu-Ray players! For those that are interested in this garbage. There's also no need anymore for BOGO sales. Prices now, like they had hopes from the beginning to be will stay high. It doesn't matter for me, I could care less about Blu-Ray, now and forever, but for you others, Pay up now, and pay up later for a finished product.
I do have a Pioneer Elite Surround sound Receiver that I like. I can care less about Blu-Ray though.
Alright!! Pricey!! :P
Checked the MSRP on DVD's lately? They're a lot higher than you think -- typically around $30. Yet, when DVD was the only format in town, nobody payed "MSRP."
Here's some numbers to think about (from Amazon).
Movie: 300
2-Disk DVD $34.98 "regular" price, Amazon price: $22.99
Single DVD $28.98 "regular", Amazon: $19.99
BluRay $34.99 "regular", Amazon: $19.95
HDDVD/DVD combo $39.99 "regular", Amazon: $27.95
I'm not meaning to compare HD-DVD to BluRay -- obviously, the HDDVD version includes a DVD version and different extras, so there's some extra value.
But look at those prices and notice:
1) They're not charging "MSRP" or "regular" prices for any format
2) DVD is the dominant format right now by far, and they're cheap
3) The BluRay and HD-DVD MSRP's are not out-of-line with the DVD MSRP's. And all formats are on sale for similar prices (if you allow an extra $10 for the dual-format HDDVD option).
4) Hollywood wants profit. If prices are too high, people won't buy. If you start only seeing $40 movies, blame all the idiots buying them up.
EQC must be getting payed by the BDA to try and "smooth the troubled waters".
No body could be that gullible without compensation.
First off: give me a logical argument. I give facts, logic, and reason. I explain things with simple economics and historical patterns. You respond with "You're gullible," "BluRay is a cartel," and best of all "BluRay, unlike every other single format in the history of the planet, is going to keep prices high through illegal back-room deals between all 200 member companies." This discussion only means something if you actually respond to what I say and give me an actual argument instead of your own baseless conspiracy theories and personal insults. You have completely failed to answer any of my questions about your theory or explain yourself at all.
For what it's worth, I'm still on DVD. I don't own a PS3 or an XBox either. I'm interested in this war only so I can buy ONE format one day, when its cheap. "Cheap" is a relative term, which requires both a consideration of the money involved as well as the use I am GUARANTEED to get out of a device -- I don't consider a $100 HD-DVD player with 10 free movies "cheap" when the format has a chance to be dead in a year, and maybe I'll only ever own 20 movies to play on it. Despite the early-adopting Engadget crowd, there are many people who think like me. We are glad that one format, the one that has been winning 60-40 in media sales for almost all of 2007, has one more advantage to hopefully end this war sooner. We do feel sorry for any HD-DVD supporters who now feel somehow cheated...but we also recognize that buying into one (or both) sides of a WAR can logically result in a little pain. We all knew such a day *might* come.
All the doomsayers are going down in flames :)
Funai just anounced a Blu Ray 1.1 player for Sub $300 (Q2 2008) with quite nice specs, more about it during the CES. Chinese players will also appear.
By that time, the 1.0 spec whould take a plunge, for those of us who couldn't give a Rat's @ss about PiP.
What about those of us that would like BD movies to play on our BD players.
They are already having problems when adding BD-Java and current BD players, I don't have high hopes for profile 1.1 BD movies playing properly on profile 1.0 players.
I have the Pioneer LX70A Blu-Ray player which was expensive at about 700 or 800 pounds. It isn't profile 1.1 compatible but it's a good player. I only hope I'll be able to trade up somehow to the new model without playing full retail price for it, just one year after spending the money on the first player.
"and really, would you put a no name player next to that shiny new Kuro?"
Pioneer must be believing their own BS and relying on ignorance of the public in order to buy their overpriced players. My answer is simply, "Yes!" And the reason, although rooted in technical details, should be plain to anyone who understands the interconnection of these HDM players with some current and most future progressive televisions.
If I had a Kuro, I wouldn't care if I used a $50 BD player to output the video content to the screen and the losslessly compressed audio to my losslessly decompressing AVR because the Kuro correctly "handles" 1080p24 content via its 72Hz 3:3 pulldown algorithm. Therefore, there is no crucial processing required in the player WRT inverse telecining or interlacing/de-interlacing - the two areas where quality silicon makes the most difference in the resultant viewing experience. All I need the $50 player to do is reliably extract the data off of the disc and push it out the HDMI interconnect with next to no processing since that will happen in the display and the AVR - IOW, the player is merely a dumb transport device - no de-interlacing or IVTC required.
The only differentiating factor then becomes build quality/reliability. Would I pay a $900 premium for such? Hardly, when that same $900 buys qty. 18 $50 players (of course none exists at this point, but in time...).