Pioneer officially ends in-house plasma production, Kuro LCDs coming soon
By Richard Lawler 
posted Mar 7th 2008 2:52AM
posted Mar 7th 2008 2:52AM
Say goodbye to Kuro as we knew (and loved) it, as Pioneer officially announced that after panel production of the next series of models is complete, it's ending all in-house plasma panel production and will build HDTVs based on panels bought elsewhere. The source went unnamed pending a final agreement, but Panasonic will likely follow up the 42-inch it's providing with plasmas of up to 60-inches. Due this fall are Kuro-edition LCDs, combining Pioneer's ultra-thin speakers and exacting picture quality standards with screens built by Sharp (hopefully this time sans-banding issues) that should see release Europe first. Other businesses affected are car audio, DJ equipment and Blu-ray players, but by streamlining operations and working closely with Sharp, it expects a return to profitability in 2010. Fans of deep black levels and accurate color reproduction probably shouldn't be alone right now, take a look at the .pdf and let the healing process begin in the comments. You're among friends, you're strong, you will get through this.
Ben D. and I just shed a tear.
Funny - after listening to him last week, when I read this, I think I heard his heart stop.
Sadly this is going to bring the whole LCD/Plasma debate back again. Hey - if they can make the same high quality display, who really cares.
I really don't think anything will change.
Panasonic would've probably caught up to them in a year or two anyways. Plus I see no reason why Pioneer wouldn't trade some technology with 'em for making the panels.
Wait i dont get it, Sharp is goin to make the TV, and Pioneer is just goin to put their logo on it? Does this mean that all future pioneer tv's will look as crappy as sharp TV's look now?
Sharp would just be making the PANELS. the processing would be pioneer's, I gather. Compare this to sony and samsung - While both use the same panels, the picture quality is very different, and the pros/cons are different.
Damn... then u gotta get one soon, and wait for the OLED breakthru in 2015...
This is terrible news, as good as Panasonic are, I don't think they are as close to perfect as Pioneer.
And Sharp LCDs tend to suck, quite badly.
Sharps do have no problems, no lie.
But "suck badly". The picture on a Sharp LCD was near-unparalleled in home devices 10 years ago. How can it be considered to "suck badly"? You can go look at a whole lineups of TVs at your local Best Buy or whatever and the Sharp would rank in the top 10%. You can't really say that the 90th percentile is "sucking badly", can you?
Sharp LCD's are great, and improving, but the Kuro's are awesome. To bad Pioneer couldn't get it into the black. I look at the 5080 and my AAFES daily, and wish that they offered a 60" 1080P model here locally. That picture is as close to perfect as we have availablet taday. I hope that Pioneer can have Matsushita spec their glass our correctly in order to continue imprevements on the Kuro like. As far as LCD's, what a bunch of eyewash. LCD is far inferior to Plasma. This is a fact. Until the locally dimmed backlight led tech is perfected, similar to brightside, LCD sucks!!!
Locally dimmed backlight is as big a scam as the currently varying backlights on LCDs (like mine) used to give sky-high contrast ratios, as are the ridiculous contrast ratios (infinite!) for plasma.
None of these contrast ratios (including the plasma) are achievable except under rigged test conditions. And locally dimmed backlight will just add to it. If you have a specific pattern, you'll have higher measured contrast, but it is unlikely to produce a better picture under real-world conditions.
This truly is sad news, but I have no doubt that Pioneer will cooperate with Panasonic by sharing the Kuro technology and keep producing the best Plasmas, but hopefully this way they can actually turn a profit.
Glad I got me my limited edition Kuro purebred when I did.
Well, I won't be as naive as Ben, who seems to think we should all go and buy Kuros NOW, before Pioneer pulls the plug. It's not as if other manufacturers won't catch up or equal (even beat) Pioneer's amazing display technology within the next few months...
I don't think this is as gloomy as it sounds (at least for the immediate future). Notice from the report it says that they will "terminate in-house plasma display panel production and to procure
these panels externally, AFTER panel production for our next series of models" meaning we will see a ninth generation Kuro that is all Pioneer made.. In addition, they state that they are currently in discussions on the feasibility of procuring panel modules that may incorporate the Companys proprietary technologies" meaning there is still a chance that many, if not all, the things we love about Pioneer plasmas could still transfer over despite the panels being made by Panasonic (and since the panels would be made by Panasonic, that could mean lower prices in the end as well).
Panasonic makes some great plasmas. Sure, they're not Kuros, but for guys on a budget like me, I'll take a Panny any day over an LCD.
Still, its sad to see Pioneer have to pull out like this. Hopefully, like Ben says, they'll give Panasonic some of their proprietary tech soon.
Fuck, Fuck, Fuck!!!
This pisses me off to no end.
Thanks for all the kind words! Coming from Pioneer, I can tell you this isn't so bad, tho'. Sure it's a blow to our pride, but does it really matter where the panels come from so long as they look great? As a point of fact, very few name brands actually manufacturer all of their own lines of products; Pioneer was one of those few. Unless you're a mega-brand like Matsushita or Sony, that eventually proves to be uneconomical (as we've sadly seen!) if you want to remain a global player and not fall into a niche market. Even Sony, as we all know, doesn't make any of their own TVs except for the OLED screens. Much of what you see out there is designed by Brand A and manufactured by Brand B. Of course, as Marty said above, we will be sharing certain key technologies with Matsushita to ensure that future panels will maintain our exacting qualities. This could change, but my understanding is that this year's 9G panels will still be released to market, but that will be the last designed and built in-house. Everyone should win in this new scenario as you should now be able to expect KURO quality at a lower price.
Don't worry, The new LCD Kuros will still have what made the plasma Kuros so special...Pioneer's marketing. If Pioneer can advertise a contrast ratio for their plasmas that cannot be achieved with even a single pixel on on the screen, they're is no reason they can't list BS ratings for their LCDs too.
And engadgetHD, please don't refer to the problem with the Sharps as "banding". I know the problem is real, as I have a Sharp and the problem is very obvious at times. But "banding" for images is a specific term that refers to an issue with color rendition where what should be smooth color (or grey) ramp turns into a series of bands of color with sharp delineations. This would be a problem with the panels. The problem with the Sharps is not even in the panels, it's a problem with the backlights, specifically that they are uneven (some might say "blotchy").
Cheap-jack computer LCDs have banding. Olden days plasmas had banding (but not for several years long time now). Sharp LCDs have uneven backlights.
Funny you should mention that as Pioneer has been the ONLY company that doesn't list those highly fictional manufacturer's suggested contrast ratios you mentioned. While I agree that their marketing could be improved, they at least don't lie about their tv's performance with artificial dynamic contrast ratios like every other company...especially LCD makers.
What, Pioneer's comments of "infinite" contrast ratios is considered reasonable to you?
They're at least as bad as everyone else. Take a look at the article in gizmodo right now explaining how despite how Pioneer will now be using the same panels as Panasonic, they will still be better (read command a premium price).
Pioneer were very early pioneers of plasma, so they deserve some credit. But they also need to be held to a reasonable standard and not let BS pass like their ridiculously inflated contrast ratios.
Any word on whether the 9G Kuro Plasmas will see the light of day, and what about the 10G infinite contrast plasma panel? What is the official word???
This may help:
The truth about Pioneer's plasma pull-out; It's business as usual for Kuro
http://www.techradar.com/news/television/new-tvs/the-truth-about-pioneers-plasma-pull-out-259633
Do NOT screw this up Pioneer.
Tony, 9G is still on schedule. You won't see any line changes in '08.
Regarding highly inflated contrast ratios, Pioneer has not advertised contrast ratios for any of its US market panels in many years due to the simple fact that no two brands use the same methodology to measure them. You won't find contrast ratios on our web-site or in our owner's manuals or brochures.
We used the catch-phrase "infinite" for one of our prototype concept panels at CES '08 due to the fact that it was literally unmeasurable using any of the current tools, and was certainly far below the measuring threshold of the industry standard. But that is a marketing phrase used only for that show, and not a declaration of technical specificity. If you had seen the demonstration, it literally disappears in a blacked out room. A rose by any other name...
Again, folks, we're not abandoning our dedication to the legendary KURO quality; we're just not going to be physically making the panels ourselves. We will still be designing them, so 10G and onwards should continue our tradition of being the best.
It disappears in a blacked out room if all pixels are turned off.
If you turn on just one pixel, internal reflections (weak as they may be) cut the contrast down to well within the measurable range.
On top of all this, these TVs are being used to reproduce NTSC and ATSC content, neither of which has an infinite range of brightnesses between minimum and maximum anyway.
High contrast is great. Accurately reproduced real-world pictures is more important though. It'd be great to see companies measure contrast in a way that is meaningful instead of with BS tricks like measuring an all black screen to an all white one. This trick makes plasma look better than it is, and it makes LCDs with variable backlights (like my Sharp) look better than they are.
why not the LS2/LS7?
Couldn't agree more. But for better or worse, we live in a world of marketing hype. That's why (again, for better or for worse) Pioneer has tried very hard to stay away from using tricks in a controlled test or demo environment in sales literature. They don't reflect real-world use. One just has to look at how power ratings are listed for HTiB systems in Europe which everyone adopted in the US a few years ago. We call it the "Struck By Lightning Rating". 1600 Watts from a $199 5.1 system? Yeeeeeaaahh, right! It's not an outright lie, but it sure isn't a realistic representation. And who has a completely black home theatre???
The "infinite" contrast ration panel demo really was cool, tho'. ;-)
This is not good the general public will know, and that alone will lower sales numbers.
The Last Great Plasma (9th Gen from Pioneer) :(
I don't what the big deal is here.Pioneer never made their panels in house until they bought NEC's plant a few years back.As far as LCD goes Pioneer is going to make them in smaller sizes up to 42" to expand their flat panel business.It's very clear that until LCD technology improves they won't make a big one!
LCD TVs are absolutely horrible, doesn't matter which brand - horrible shadow details, crushed blacks, horrible pixel response, bad bad bad. I hope Sony ditches their LCD Bravia line and starts pushing OLED quickly. But for now, plasmas are the best and Pioneer 8G Kuro panels are king of the hill. Pioneer 9G Kuros will have tradeoffs - lower costs means cheaper parts.
SED and LASER TVs are at a dead end. They won't come out nowadays and even much less in the future as the technology is completely infeasible to survive the current and future markets. That is mostly everyone wants CHEAP low cost first, and picture quality in a distant 2nd.
I am buying the 9th gen as soon as it is released. I only want a plasma made entirely in-house at pioneer. I have a 42" pioneer plasma that is only 1080i but I am still so much more impressed with it than I am with anything Panasonic puts out.