http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/ Engadget HD Comments for Kaleidescape's overpriced upscaling DVD players get reviewed http://hd.engadget.com/media/feedlogo.gif http://hd.engadget.com en-us Copyright 2009 Weblogs, Inc. The contents of this feed are available for non-commercial use only. Blogsmith http://www.blogsmith.com/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
"They say luck favors the prepared. It also doesn't hurt to be in the right place at the right time. Whatever. The planets aligned in my favor, resulting in my being one of the few reviewers handpicked by Kaleiedescape co-founder and COO, Cheena Srinivasan, to audition and preview their latest addition."

]]>Jun 18th 2008 7:31PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
That being said, I think this is a niche product that won't really be adopted in any real way by consumers, unless it gets cheaper than a BluRay player. for LESS than a BluRay player, seeing all my movies in near HiDef Quality would be tempting...]]>Jun 18th 2008 7:38PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/Jun 18th 2008 8:29PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
Sure, if it did Blu-ray in addition to what it does, then maybe, but any way you dice this one it is a rip-off.]]>Jun 19th 2008 10:21AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
It doesn't matter if it isn't 100% equal.

It only matters that it can get to most of that 100%.

The electronic trickery to do so is fantastically priced here, but that is neither here nor there right now.

That can come down later in other, cheaper, chipsets.

The real big deal is that it works & turns out to be so good.

Much better than current upscaling is the thing.

Much better than current upscaling & in a climate where a large section of the market says the difference between current upscaling & Blu-ray just isn't worth the premium Blu-ray demands.

The outlook for Blu-ray just got a hell of a lot bleaker.

(and clinging to a bunch of irrelevant - to most a/v consumers - BS about uncompressed audio etc etc isn't going to alter that one little bit)]]>Jun 18th 2008 8:30PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/Jun 18th 2008 10:01PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/Which means we don't care.
End of story.]]>Jun 18th 2008 10:03PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/Jun 19th 2008 4:35AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
"Sadly, the new player won't handle Blu-ray. For fun, I dropped a BD into the drive thinking maybe, just maybe . . . but the player spit out the disc after a few seconds. Until Kaleidescape offers a Blu-ray solution — which they've promised to do sometime in 2009 — these new movie players offer performance that will make the wait less painful."

In other words, yeah, the upconversion is great, but a true 1080p source is better, and this is a stopgap at best. ]]>Jun 19th 2008 10:22AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
Talk about reaching E.

Don't be so obtuse.

Of course it doesn't play Blu-ray.......wtf ever gave you the idea that it would?!

This is about getting very close to high def quality using existing SD DVD tech.

The point is that it gets very very close to a high def performance using regular SD DVD, without a high def disc.
No need for Blu-ray.

Way too many people already say upscale is good enough and Blu-ray isn't worth it (even in the 480i/p standard def USA.....snicker) at the price.

This tech is just the 1st to prove the gap can be closed much further with a good chipset.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what the spurs engine can do and at what price.
]]>Jun 19th 2008 11:37AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/Jun 18th 2008 8:42PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
If you are in the market for a Kaleidescape system this is all good news.

If a 20k DVD server isn't your thing then it hardly matters, just stop calling it an expensive DVD player! Kaleidescape is sold for the experience. Play a movie and the theaters masking system moves into place giving you a 2.35 experience. The lights automatically dim. The fbi crap is skipped and you enjoy the movie in seconds.

When the credits hit, the lights slowly raise. When it ends the house lights go all the way up.

Kaleidescape is for people who both have the money and are willing to spend it for an experience like that. On top of it now, they scale better.

Truth be told, odds are they already had a scaler in their theater, but for other rooms this is a cool upgrade.

If you don't understand scalers then you know even less about this product to discuss it.

Curt]]>Jun 18th 2008 11:12PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
I think by the time a player like this comes to market at a price most of us can afford, blu-ray players will be $99, there will be thousands of movies available and the movies will be closer to the price that a dvd is now.

What I felt was missing from this review, and it was probably because this site was handpicked to do a special review by the company, was a direct comparison of a well-transferred blu-ray and the same movie on dvd. Until then, there's no convincing me of anything. A movie transferred at pure 1080p (and probably remastered for it) and a transfer of it's soundtrack from the masters in a lossless format cannot be replaced.

And what about the thusands and thousands of dvd's that have poor quality transfers? You can't upscale them without making them look worse, and there are plenty of those. Can't replace that with a new high def transfer. I admit the thought of seeing my dvd collection look better always wets the appetite, but no way am I going to spend that kind of money for dvd anymore. I'll stick with 1080p transfers and lossless, thanks very much.]]>Jun 19th 2008 12:20AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/Jun 19th 2008 12:28AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
I have close to 400 DVD's, and no way in hell will I replace them with Blu-Ray if that was even at all possible, which it isn't. I know how good HD DVD looks, and while DVD isn't as good, I was pretty amazed at the quality of Upscaling my HD DVD player was doing on a DVD! The detail was shocking, I can't believe the quality possible from a DVD. Yes it depends on the Quality of the Movie that was put on the DVD, some are pretty poor, yet others are quite well done.

To Improve that quality even more is shocking. I can't wait to see it in person in even better quality. Yes is not as good as HD DVD or BLU-RAY, but if I don't have to spend $400+ on a player, and a bunch more on Movies, who cares, I can hold off and stick with DVD's even longer. I know this site is such PRO Blu-Ray, but please, most people would be happy with Up converted DVD's just like myself.

I sure in hell wouldn't spend the money on these devices either though. But since they make them, there must be a market out there for it.]]>Jun 19th 2008 1:24AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
I mean the name of the site isn't EngadgetSD-upscaled-to-HD.

]]>Jun 19th 2008 7:51AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/Jun 19th 2008 2:22AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/Jun 19th 2008 3:03AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
1.) A stand alone Profile 2.0 blu-ray player
2.) A nice OPPO upcoverting DVD Player (optional)

And still have over $3,000 to buy Blu-Rays with...even at $30 a pop that well over 100 Blu-rays...you can probably get that to 150-200 Blu-Rays if you shop smart.

]]>Jun 19th 2008 7:24AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
I looked at a Scaler when I first got my Plasma...but I couldn't justify spending as much on the scaler as I did on my display but if you are talking about a $10,000 1080p projector setup, it does make a lot more sense as at that resolution and that side...video processing probably is necessary.
]]>Jun 19th 2008 7:47AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
Of course the mass-market isn't going to pay for this tech, no more than they are itching to buy Blu-ray.

This isn't really abour $10k+ players.

The point of interest here is all about how close they could get to 'real' high def.

They can.

If you read what they say you can see the publication bending over backwards trying not to offend their advertisers (hello BDA)
but they do not say anything remotely like
'claims that this player can get very close to high def are laughable'.

There's nothing like that to be seen.

That being the case (and it is) it's all now just a matter of getting a cheaper chipset to do the same (or very close to) the same thing.

Cue the 'spurs engine'.

Hello high price, high margin still stuck in the game console niche Blu-ray.

LMAO]]>Jun 19th 2008 8:48AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
Resolution? Interpolating a 480p/24 to an 1080p/24 signal is easy and common.

How are you going to replicate the deeper blacks and the whiter whites (dynamic range?) This information isn't on the DVD to recover, the player is going to have to guess how to expand it or provide the user some way to adjust it.

How are we going to get the increased color gaumt, again the information doesn't exist on the DVD and the player is going to guess or the user will have to adjust it?

And if the user has to adjust it, will there be a way to store the settings on the player or will AVSforum have to dedicate a "Jesus Player" thread so we can all share our settings?

Don't get me wrong...upscaling is important as there is going to be a lot of 480i/p content that we will need to deal with for a long time. But to me, if we are just going to use resolution to tell if something is "close enough" to HD then all those photographers who spent all that money on 39MP digital backs can just throw those out and use their iPhones because obviously you can just upscale and that is "close enough" And BTW, be sure to thank Sony for their part of that gamer-niche Cell CPU that is going to sit at the heart of the Jesus Player.

]]>Jun 19th 2008 9:13AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/Jun 19th 2008 3:24PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
The proving of the technology which is a route to enable a high def (or very ver near high def) result out of SD DVDs is really (to you) all about HD DVD.

*rolls eyes*

Pathetic.

The really funny part is that this is being done in the 480i/p standard def USA.
I can't wait to see the results in 576p Europe.

No need for Blu-ray.

LMAO ]]>Jun 19th 2008 6:13PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
Seriously, you're so disingenuous. Had HD DVD come out on top, you'd be touting how much better it is to have true HD sources with all the extras and audio.

What happened? We went from bashing blu-ray for not being Profile 2.0 and capable of web enabled "features" to DVD is good enough? How pathetic is that!!!

It is so transparent as to your motives that any defense/promotion of any upscaling tech by you or anyone else is just laughable. When it was HD DVD vs. BLu-ray, blu-ray wasn't good enough because it didn't have all the bells and whistles but now DVD is good enough???

Come on...]]>Jun 19th 2008 9:55PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/Jun 20th 2008 9:33AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/XDragon

No TT, the real funny thing is that its ok for you to be happy about the "potential" of a product regardless of its "present" price and yet its not ok for others to do the same with "other" news which happens to be presently at a much lower price than this.
=====================================================

No.

As per you have completely missed the point & grasped the wrong end of this point completely.

It was never about the price here.

It was always all about how much closer to high def SD DVD could get.

Despite the price ticket for this particular tech the fact is that it tirns out that it is possible to get much closer to supposedly 'real' high def.

People already say (in large numbers - even in the 480i/p standard def USA) that upscaled SD DVD is good enough & that Blu-ray is just way too expensive comapred to the benefit it offers.

The really interesting part now is to find out how much the spurs engined Toshibas can close the gap and at what price.

You and the rest of the Blu-ray fanclub can continue to spout lies and delusions about $200 and less BD players but we all know that is pure BS.
Just as you try to claim the whole business of high def as if Blu-ray is the only option for it.

But that is just your own myopic problem & self-created delusion.

Still, as per you seem to need to have the last word so go ahead, work away.

I'm sure you can manage to completely miss the point once again if you try hard enough.]]>Jun 22nd 2008 2:49PMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
"Close enough to close enough." Sigh...

Like I said, come back when someone has screen shots of Planet Earth on the Jesus Player, HD broadcast, and Blu-ray and let's see where the chips fall. (excuse the multiple puns.)]]>Jun 19th 2008 9:39AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
Let me say this again, it cost this price BEFORE THEY PUT IN THE GENUM CHIP! Kaleidescape systems costs tens of thousands of dollars. This is one part of the system. You are paying for the software experience they provide, not a piece of hardware.

They pay dozens of people to put in meta-data for every DVD (obviously they license data as well), but with their updates it has bookmarks to skip intros, fbi warnings, marks where the credits start and more.

So, to sum this up:

This is a CEDIA product, not mass market.
It is expensive for many reasons, and not because it is $4k worth of dvd playing nirvanna!

Scaling chips DO make a huge difference. I have 150" screen, people mistake good dvd for being bluray all the time. YES, I DO have a bluray player and it is better quality. (okay, and HD DVD but we won't go there). Kaleidescape gives me a better experience and plays my current library in a kick-ass way. Next year they will add Bluray, but in the meantime this upgrade means standard DVDs will look better.]]>Jun 19th 2008 10:10AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
Like another has said, this player hooks up to the dvd/cd server to allow you to not only play a disc in the drive but all your stored movies/music. So in that sense you're also getting a streamer. Throw in the fact that these are sold through dealers looking to make a profit on hardware plus needing to support them, and you start seeing the price more justified.

What people need to realize though, is folks that purchase Kaleidescape systems also have Runco/Barco/Sim2/ProjectionDesign projectors that have built-in video processors every bit as good as what's in these dvd players. Heck the JVC RS2 and the Optoma HD81-LV have the same Gennum processing. So it's entirely pointless to have the image processed twice, just send the projector a 480i signal and allow it to do all the processing. So in that sense, these players are very overpriced, because the money for all the snazzy processing isn't going to be utilized. However, if you have these players stuffed all over the house, there's a good chance the video processing on the tv's in other rooms would not be as good as the Gennum in the player. So in that sense you can see the benefit of the extra cost. Perhaps have a player available without processing to lower cost? - yeah right, the people that buy these systems don't care how much it costs, they just want it to work and don't want to spend any time keeping it up (think of a CEO working 70 hrs a week, he doesn't care about cost just wants it to work)

In response to Curt, as far as I know Kaleidescape doesn't dim the lights and lower the screen, that's all done with separate Crestron/Lutron/AMX etc automation and lighting systems, Kaleidescape is simply a dvd/cd server with a cool interface.]]>Jun 19th 2008 10:15AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/
Yes, it takes a control system, what Kaleidescape adds is the integration. They send a signal when a movie starts that tells the aspect ratio. You need to understand that it is no easy task, look at the crap info you get from the professional metadata companies that say "widescreen" for a 2.35 or 1.85 or 1.78 movie. Kaleidescape gets you that data.

They send you a signal to dim the lights. A signal for intermission and a signal when the end credits start. Again, this is powerful stuff not currently done in ANY other system on the market.

As for the RS2 having the same processing, that is just simply incorrect. Everything has a scaler of some sort, but there are different levels. The RS2 has an external box that you can add-on that gives you, well, the same chip :)

You are 100% correct that you don't want to process twice. In my theater my Kaleidescape system outputs at 480i. My Realta box at the end of the line does all the work.]]>Jun 19th 2008 10:27AMhttp://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/http://hd.engadget.com/2008/06/18/kaleidescapes-overpriced-upscaling-dvd-players-gets-reviewed/With $10k+ of equipment you might get closer to HD than with your normal upconverting DVD, but it has been found wanting and lacking compared with true HD sources, let alone a -very- good BluRay player (like a Marantz, Denon or Pioneer) whihc will still only net you about $2k, if that.

What is sad is that probably due to promotionnal purposes (Kaledidescape probably only let them see the system in adance if they were to offer a mostly positive review and no "unfair" comparisons), we see no shootout between the Kaleidecape, a Samsung DB1500 and a high end Denon or Pioneer player, comparing upsclaing in all three cases (with a very good DVD but also an average transfer one), but also upscaling Kaleidescape vs the best Blu Ray can show on the same movie (maybe with I Robot per example).
THAT would have been telling.

But in the end, and for more than $14k (full system), this is what it comes down to:
"The 1080p Player's upscaling magic was limited with old or poor transfers, but when working with pristine source material, the results approached true HD quality. Direct digital transfers of recent Pixar films or Star Wars: Episode III — Revenge of the Sith, had a depth and dimensionality that exceeded my expectations of what a DVD could look like. "

"Approached", and not "very close" or "almost equal", is imo a bit tame for $14k. Specially when said technology actually make old poor transfers (probably a majority in the DVD market) barely better at all due to the technology used in the upscaling (notice how they glimpse over that point very very fast).]]>Jun 19th 2008 7:07PM