Thanks to Black Friday sales, Blu-ray players should outpace the CEA's expectations
By Ben Drawbaugh 
posted Dec 5th 2008 9:05PM
posted Dec 5th 2008 9:05PM
posted Dec 5th 2008 9:05PM
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I am interested in buying a Panasonic DMP-BD35K or Sony BDP-S350. But since they're still not as fast as the Sony PS3, I'm holding out for the street price of these models to drop even further. Maybe after Christmas, or even in January, if the price drops to $200. Alternatively, if the price doesn't drop before the next models are announced, I may just wait to see how the new models are improved.
I heard the word "Blu-ray" on many people's lips at Target tonight. If everyday prices were under $200, I have a feeling a lot of folks would be buying. Today's economy is all about home entertainment.
I've had a few people call me recently asking me which Bluray players to buy so it's catching on. Probably a good thing because I want to see it succeed.
Ya, me too all of a sudden. People were asking me which one to buy for presents.
I picked up a BD-P1500 off Amazon Friday super early in the AM for $149 - zero shipping and sales tax. Went back up to $204 less than a hour later.
I received the player today and updated the firmware - works great and for $149, it was less than my A-20 and A-3 HD DVD players during their decline. Which by the way you can pick up HD DVD movies for $7.99 - still a good deal to build a library.
I told myself I was not going to spend iver $179 - so I have $30 to spend on a movie or movies.
I received up a Samsung BD-P1500 Blu-ray player along a Samsung HDTV that was ordered from Amazon on BF. Net delivered to my home cost to me for the Blu-ray was a negative one dollar.
Just a personal observation as a retailer. BD players, especially the S350 and P1500, are just flying out the door. So many people have/are buying a large, usually 1080p display, and selling a $200-300 BD player is just nothing.
It is REALLY taking off.
Hey FM, I'm in EXACTLY the same boat as you.
I'm seriously tempted, but I'll try and wait for MP3 and Divx playback.
Hopefully, the next ranges will play both.
i picked up a sharp blu-ray player for $125 even though its not a 2.0 profile its the older models,i dont care about bd-live and all that stuff i just want to watch movies
The same thing is happening to me... Many friends are asking me about Bluray lately.
This just makes me think..... Where are all those guys who were predicting and arguing the end of Bluray and the taking over of downloads so vigorously just a few weeks ago on these forums......?
The three day Black Friday weekend have the Sony entry-level play for $187.80, but it went back up the following Monday to $227. This morning the Panasonic '35' was $199 and the Samsung was $227.
I think considering these are Blu-ray players that also are good upscaling players then the prices can't really be beat. And for the in the niche HTPC market the BD-ROM drives can be had for $95.
So, yeah, I wouldn't be too surprised that the Blu-ray market is taking off nicely.
Anecdotes are great and all but hardly take the place of hard verifiable fact.
We'll see soon enough.
GhostDoggy @ Dec 6th 2008 10:11AM
"considering these are Blu-ray players that also are good upscaling players then the prices can't really be beat".
Hilarious.
There are 2, possibly 3, Blu-ray players which can honestly be described a good upscalers. The rest are the very definition of average to poor.
Including the PS3.
I'm only interested in having one player for all my DVD/Blu-ray playback.
So I would very much like to know Multi-format-mayhem, what are those 2 or 3 players you're referring to?
Thanks.
The Denon, the coming Oppo and the Samsung 2500.
If you feel that way about most Blu-ray players, I'd bet you also feel that way about most DVD players that upscale.
Also, I predict that you are a HQV fanboy -- you believe they are the only semi' company that makes a good upscaling chip.
Nope, I'm not anybodies' fanboy Ben, actual performance & results are all, whoever they are from.
Reon & QDEO are my preferred choice......and by that I mean my own actual buying choices, spending my cash, not spouting theories from reading what other people thought, Ben.
But if you're happy to accept & call their usual 2nd rate kit great then go ahead and say most Blu-ray players are 'good' if you want, although I think you'll find few serious reviewers backing that up.
It's just a fact that almost every single Blu-ray player out there is pi$$-poor at DVD upscaling.
I can't help thinking that this is probably deliberate (to exaggerate the difference).
Actually I don't think there is any such thing as a good upscaller. I just don't have enough hours in my day to waste my time on anything but real HD.
Playstation upscaler was not good in the early days but with the latest firmware it rivals the Toshiba XA2. I will put my PS3 against any Bluray player out there for upscaling.
That's great and smugly elitist of you Ben, I trust your ivory tower is comfortable and you enjoy your relative isolation.
But there are many of us that have nice DVD collections (several hundred strong and which we will not be replacing - even assuming they all became available on high def) and live in areas where HD TV doesn't even make up 10% of the available channels.
For those of us out in the real world upscaling/upconversion is an important part of our a/v experience; and it will remain so for a very long time to come,
regardless of how quickly high def is adopted (which right now is 'not very').
I suppose I deserve that for assuming you were a fanboy, but you're wrong about my ivory tower isolation. In fact it's the opposite, as I have two jobs, go to school part time and have two very young kids. So on the rare occasion that I get to sit down and watch something, it's going to be HD.
“Reon & QDEO are my preferred choice......and by that I mean my own actual buying choices, spending my cash, not spouting theories from reading what other people thought, Ben.”
Are you saying because you bought these players, they are good upscalers?
If you’re saying that you have some serious knowledge about what is good or bad that means you review Blu-rays players for a living, right? But, since you didn’t disclose this at the beginning of your statements, I think not.
If you have some scientific data on the subject post the link. It might be a good read for us, and we can take you seriously.
If you’re reading off the back the box or a PR pamphlet, then you’re a fanboy. Just accept your badge and wear it proudly.
Okay, I'll admit it...I'm a current HD DVD and Apple TV owner and convinced that downloads are indeed the future of home entertainment...but when Wal-Mart offered the Memorex MVBD2511 for $148 this week, I couldn't resist. The current price of the MVBD2511, $169, still isn't bad! So get yours! What are you waiting for? I see the light! It's so beautiful!
MacMall had the MVBD2510 for $127.00 on Black Friday and continued to allow people to buy them even though they were out of stock. Overstock.com has the MVBD2510 as of this writing for $169.00.
I am one of those who owns a Toshiba HD DVD player, an OPPO player, an old Dennon DVD player, a Panasonic Bluray Player, and 2 plasmas and 2 LCDs, one of the plasma is the 9th generation Pioneer 60" Kuro, and I consult for custom sound and video systems on the side...
I am a little perplexed by the comment of "Reon & QDEO" comment from one of the regular bloggers here....
Let us see what makes more sense to the average consumer... A Bluray player that is mediocre at upscaling DVDs but can play both Blurays and DVDs that costs $200 or less, OR an upscaling DVD player that cannot play anything but DVD for over $200...?
As I remember one of the past comments on the merits of 1080p resolution for screens smaller than 32", that the average consumer cannot appreciate and tell the difference.. AND the comment on how most consumers cannot tell a significant improvement between a cheaply upscaled DVDs signal vs Bluray signal...
And then there seem to be other contradictions in what is presented here... What is more obvious and significant to the average consumer...? The quality difference between a mediocre upscaled DVD signal against that of upscaling performed by a great chip like REON, OR the quality difference between a Bluray HD signal against that of an upscaled DVD signal, cheap or otherwise, even if by REON...??
I have seen the results of all the above on my medium sized and large screens, from all of the above combinations... Guess what? The improvement of quality between an upscaled signal, even if by REON, is by no means comparable to a HD Bluray signal... This is not just resolution, but color space, etc...
So I really do not think all that argument make all that practical sense, maybe just ego talking...
You show an average consumer the same movie as a Bluray disc vs a DVD, played on the same screen, medium or large, the consumer will notice the obvious quality improvement on the Bluray version, even if the DVD version is played on an upscaling DVD player with REON chip... And given that upscaling DVD players with REON chips are not MORE expensive than Bluray players, AND Bluray players are more versatile, at least able to playback DVDs, evenif in mediocre manner, the choice is clear, to the majority and average consumers....
Correction to the last sentence:
And given that upscaling DVD players with REON chips are now MORE expensive than Bluray players,...
My final comment is... The average consumer cannot readily tell a significant difference of quality of DVDs upscaled by REON or just a mediocre chip, but the same consumer will be able to EASILY tell a significant difference in quality between a Bluray disc against a DVD disc even if played via REON chip upscaling. And these high end REON chip upconversion DVD players are now actually more expensive than a Bluray player... So what is your arguement..?
"But there are many of us that have nice DVD collections (several hundred strong and which we will not be replacing - even assuming they all became available on high def) and live in areas where HD TV doesn't even make up 10% of the available channels."
I also owns a large collection of vinyl, I was a DJ in my youth... Yes vinyl is making a SMALL comeback, and yes there are SOME fans of vinyl (I am not one). BUT this is not at all "many of us", but when compared to the average consumer, a VERY small minority of consumers who are still sticking with vinyl, and this number is decreasing... So the argument presented by the blogger above sounds like the vinyl argument... We can even go further... So where are the cassette collectors? And 8 track collectors....??
The same reason you bought your Kuro is the same reason he chooses Reon & QDEO for his DVD upscaling.
He was not saying don't get a BD player, he was responding to a post about the cheap BD players also being great upconverters; which he (and most reviewers) disagree with.
Then someone asked him what players he likes, which he answered.
I don't have your credentials, but we are in complete agreement.
My only objection to mayham's post was that there is more than just one chip out there that can do a good job upconverting.
d.james2:
If you read my posts carefully, you would have known that I was referring to one particular blogger that posted numerous posts on the subject of Bluray, HD DVD, streaming, and upconversion DVD players... I think I was pretty obvious on my 1st reply, specifially paragraphs 4 and 5...
"He was not saying don't get a BD player, he was responding to a post about the cheap BD players also being great upconverters; which he (and most reviewers) disagree with."
Not so at all.. Too many posts from him all over the place to make references to...
Ben knows what I am talking about...
bravo, couldn't have said it betterr myself
Way to (deliberately?) confuse several related, but different, points there, cwnyc.
I'm sure you at least were impressed.
My choice of upscaler is mine (and umteen reviewers) alone.
(conclusions arrived at by numerous visits to shops and specialist a/v rooms actually, nihillasohen; but kudos to you, you little fantasy was at least amusing)
It is hardly the point whether or not the general public/mass-market agrees or can even see the qualitative difference.
The fact is some scalers are verifiably (much) better than others.
Just as the general public might not notice, at a casula glance, the difference between certain PC components, that does not mean those difdferences do not exist.
That's a rather silly point you made there actually.
It is also a fact that the HD TV market is currently composed of a majority of HD TV between 32" - 42" and with a resolution of 720p.
EngadgetHD actually gave the numbers here as recently as Sept this year.
This means it is undeniable that the leap from upscaled DVD to Blu-ray is less than it would otherwise be (on a larger higher res HD TV).
Again this is just a fact beyond dispute.
It will also be true that a bad scaler feeding one of these HD TVs will exaggerate the difference (such as it is) between the upscaled DVD and the Blu-ray displayed image.
Of course that gap will be less and the mass-market might not notice or care but nevertheless that is still the fact of the matter.
You might (condescendingly IMO "The average consumer cannot readily tell" as if that were a certain fact) claim this does not matter (and indeed it may not to some) but it is still no reason to deny that most Blu-ray players make cr@p DVD players.
They do as repeated reviews show.....and as repeatedly going out and comparing them would also show.
I have never stated (and I am unaware anyone else ever did either) say that REON or QDEO produce an image identical to Blu-ray or better than Blu-ray.
Your ridiculous straw-man.
Similarly I bought REON for upscaling my TV service as well as my DVDs (it is built into my HD receiver).
Of course 'most' will never be interested in that level of performance but then I was not the one who made laughably favourable claims about the scaler built in to most Blu-ray players.
You might not care about DVD playback but I, like many many others, do - & ditto upscaling SD TV transmissions.
But to you that just written off as "ego talking".
LOL
Way to respectfully discuss & dismiss something you don't agree with.
Not.
As usual you choose to make a mountain out of the difference between Blu-ray and upscaled DVD.
Just because you care about it does not mean everyone else will or does.
Most people that I know when they are watching movies are very quickly into watching the movie, they not consumed with slight differences in visible detail.
Similarly I've yet to meet the owner who didn't enjoy his Dolby Digital receiver.
Just as I know several PS3 owners who often choose the DVD version of a movie is good enough & the Blu-ray isn't worth the cost (how lossless can be that 'awesome' on a dialogue heavy movie?).
Somewhere along the line I think the PS3 fanboy element is going to wake up to being taken for a ride.
Most of them just do not have the kit to properly experience what Blu-ray really offers
(with the slight exception of those sitting about 12" - 24" away from their small HD TV screen/PC monitor).
Most do not have an audio system capable of properly reproducing audio to the high quality necessary to even hear what lossless audio offers.
.....and too few will ever have the enormous 60"+ HD TV or high end audio kit.
Of course there's always the underlying truth that not everyone can have nor actually wants a 'home cinema' either.
The general public are not especially video or audiophiles and attempting to sell the general public a product that so clearly is aimed at the video/audiophile is futile IMO.
I would suggest that Blu-ray should settle down to doing what it can do, for now, offering the highest available quality possible.
They should forget all about replacing DVD, it just isn't going to happen.
It cannot happen fast enough, particularly now we can expect at least 1yr and maybe as much as 3yrs of economic slump
(if not worse....who recalls that the crash of 1929 was followed 3 or 4yrs later by the worst of the 1930s depression - think that's exaggerated? Go talk to some senior bankers/financiers and see how frightened - and I mean really frightened about what is going on right now - they are right now).
They should switch to BD50s only and encode to the highest possible standard the spec allows.
At least that way they can grow as the video/audiophile's choice and begin to justify the premium they demand.
Trying to be a mass-market product is IMO futile, it simply hasn't enough to offer the mass-market and it comes at a price almost guaranteed to ensure it's failure to replace DVD.
I'd also say that they ought to wake up to the fact that as a recordable PC media it is going nowhere at current pricing.
As for the general public and whether or not they should bother with Blu-ray?
Frankly I do not think they have any serious reason to.
Unless you have a huge (60"+) HD TV (watching at normal distances) and an expensive audio system it offers so little over DVD that I personally do not think it is worth the additional costs.
Wow, so shoot me down, I have a different opinion/view.
You are obviously NOT reading carefully what I have written... AND you have NOT addressed my points in an objective manner but rather name calling everyone here and talk AROUND the topic... I am going to get down to YOUR level, your level of putting forth arguments won't even qualify for a high school debate team... Or maybe you should talk to a shrink about your ego... AND for your information, I DON'T HAVE A PS3...
Let us do this by looking at your specific claims:
".....and too few will ever have the enormous 60"+ HD TV or high end audio kit."
Again, not reading my post... I specifically stated that what we are talking about applies to mid and large sized TV, not just the 60"... I have a 26" LCD, 37" LCD, 50" plasma, and a 60" plasma.
"This means it is undeniable that the leap from upscaled DVD to Blu-ray is less than it would otherwise be (on a larger higher res HD TV).
Again this is just a fact beyond dispute."
Provide the fact first before you talk... Where is your OBJECTIVE supporting evidence?? If the price of upscaled DVD is not competitive to Bluray, you think the consumer will choose the former?
"Most people that I know when they are watching movies are very quickly into watching the movie, they not consumed with slight differences in visible detail."
Again, how is this a valid argument, so what? What does this have to do when it comes down to deciding how to spend one's money on a new medium player....? Consumers are not in a store to watch movies but to look at what give them best bang for their money. They will COMPARE products, technologies, and most important of all, value. A quick comparison between ANY upscaled DVD is no match for Bluray on ANY sized TV screens. This statement is even put out by upscaling DVD manufacturers.. They always advertise upscaling makes DVDs look "close" to HD, but never has any of them states that upscaling is as good as HD.
One more comment: Everyone is sick of your rant here. I didnt want to reply at first, but after reading your endless rant and attacks on other bloggers here, I decided to say something... You don't even have the all the equipment to do any A/B comparison yourself, but you keep on going... Get a HD DVD, get a Bluray, get TVs of different sizes, compare, THEN talk!
If you want to be taken seriously instead of just calling everyone here names who disagrees with you and challenges you, go see your shrink....
" As usual you choose to make a mountain out of the difference between Blu-ray and upscaled DVD. Just because you care about it does not mean everyone else will or does."
You are just projecting... It is actually the reverse, just because YOU care about upscaling DVD players does not mean everyone else will or does. For the average consumer, if a DVD plays and they see a relatively clean image on a TV screen, they dont care about REON this or that, or jaggies, or moire noise, or low bitrate, etc, etc...
"As for the general public and whether or not they should bother with Blu-ray?
Frankly I do not think they have any serious reason to."
The average, general consumer will not care to spend money on an upscaled DVD player if Bluray prices continue to drop as we are currently witnessing. How about the videophiles? You know what? They want the best of any medium and will buy the best of BOTH mediums. Videophiles will not choose upscaled DVDs in place of Bluray, they will buy BOTH. At the end, BOTH the average consumer and the videophile will "bother" to get Blury.
"Unless you have a huge (60"+) HD TV (watching at normal distances) and an expensive audio system it offers so little over DVD that I personally do not think it is worth the additional costs."
Additional cost?? Upscaling DVD players with high end chips are more expensive than Bluray players now. Do you have a Bluray? Do you have TVs of different sizes to claim this? Did you bother to ask anyone who can do an A/B comparison, even if it is in a store with poorly calibrated set ups, even if it is only a 26" screen TV, if they think Bluray is not better than DVDs? Worth the extra $? Prices? Didn't we just go through this already?
Let me point out MORE of your contradictions in YOUR OWN POST:
"This means it is undeniable that the leap from upscaled DVD to Blu-ray is less than it would otherwise be (on a larger higher res HD TV). Again this is just a fact beyond dispute."
"Unless you have a huge (60"+) HD TV (watching at normal distances) and an expensive audio system it offers so little over DVD that I personally do not think it is worth the additional costs."
Hun???
Quite plainly cwnyc your comprehension skills are so poor that dialogue is impossible.
You wheedle & fiddle around with the most minor and secondary points whilst ignoring the primary.
I'm sure you find your debating skills stunningly impressive.
I'm so pleased for you but I just cant be ar$ed wasting my time.
Tell you what, you win. Wow.
OK?
How's that for you, eh?
Go ahead & bask in your mighty victory.
I am so massively humbled.
LMAO
See, out of 10 sentences of your last reply, not one single, objective supporting evidence to defend your claims. Is there any challenge to your quotes I pointed out with objective evidence and logical argument? All just jabs and rants...
Wasting your time? How many posts have you posted here and elsewhere...? You sure had a lot of time when you rant...
Hey I still think HD DVD is better than Bluray, I have both, but then again both are much better than any upscaling DVD, REOn or not, and I have them all so I can speak from experience, not just pulling them out of my behind...
Like Ben said, who cares about upscaling DVDs with REON now days as Bluray prices drop??
It is obvious that you are not a true videophile, and you are not an average consumer either, but just a fanatic of upscaling DVDs and an obsessed anti-Bluray crank... Do you also have a large cassette, 8 track, or reel to reel tape collection and still keep buying whatever you can to enhance those technologies and argue with everyone that the quality of well recorded digital music over the above phased out mediums is not worthwhile..?
If you care to "waste" time to "congratulate" me like your last reply, then do it with objective and logical evidence to defend your quotes, instead of name calling and sarcasm. Otherwise, you are just being predictable.
Go cry at someone else, they might even care.
So sorry not to have played your dreary little game & to have spoiled your fun.
(LMAO at the name-calling btw)
Well since you don't seem to get the point of anyone's comments on this page, especially mine. I'll have to put it very simple like, just for you…
So here it goes, don’t accuse people of spouting off lies and untruths when you don’t have facts to rebut their statements. If you cared enough about the subject they are commenting on, you would do the research to support your rants. I’m not against what you’re saying; I’m against your hypocrisy. I’ve included the definition for your reference in future postings.
And yes I’m very amusing.
Hypocrisy- Insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have.
I'm still waiting for the prices to drop. Black Friday was a good start but it lasted one day. Now the prices are still too expensive for what it is. I'll jump once the prices reach the 150.00 mark. Otherwise, my money will continue to sit with me.