Engadget HD Podcast 133 - 04.22.2009
By Trent Wolbe 
posted Apr 22nd 2009 1:30PM
posted Apr 22nd 2009 1:30PM
Lots of news hit the wire just before we started recording so we once again invited Nilay from the Engadget Podcast to join us and help out. He had an early peak at the Amazon HD streaming and provided some good insight, from an HD snob's point of view. Lucky for us he stuck around for the entire show when we also covered other VOD alternatives, the new Moxi HD DVR and a TiVo survey. Next we kinda struggled through some apparently unexciting Blu-ray news, but pushed on to discuss our most recent HD 101 post. We finally bring it all home with some bandwidth cap talk and a listener voice mail.Get the podcast
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Hosts: Ben Drawbaugh, Steven Kim
Producer: Trent Wolbe
00:00:55 - Comments from Engadget HD Podcast 132 - 04.15.2009
00:15:53 - Amazon Video on Demand HD on Roku Video Player hands-on
00:29:53 - DirecTV claims largest 1080p library, including all new HD VOD on the way
00:34:45 - Moxi HD DVR initial impressions
00:51:07 - TiVo survey hints at new name, direction for Series4 boxes
00:57:15 - Analyst: '09 YTD Blu-ray sales double those of '08, 10.5 million Blu-ray households in the U.S.
01:01:40 - Battlestar Galactica Complete Series Blu-ray set ready for preorder on Amazon
01:02:28 - Lord of the Rings trilogy Blu-ray set shows up on Amazon, but where's the extras?
01:05:05 - HD 101: How to use Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD with your PS3
01:16:03 - BBC breaks down the new DRM rules for Blu-ray recorders
01:25:35 - Time Warner Cable scraps broadband capping plan in Rochester, NY
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Since you guys aren't really good friends will one of you be my friend? Preferably Steve 'cuz Ben wouldn't like me since I don't have a Mac and a Linux machine.
For the audio comment here is a massive Blu-ray PQ tier on AVS Forum from the very best to the very worst:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=858316
There is also a massive AQ tier linked in that post.
Here is a (smaller) list of recommendations by their #1 audio/video reviewer:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037108
While your at it with that PS3 audio test, you should see if there is any difference from bitstreaming Vs PCM on Ben's BD player.
Great broadcast as always. I loved the discussion of the buy a PC ads last week. Here's my question for this week:
I recently decided to try out digital over the air television here in San Diego since the stations have already switched. I was appalled by the prevalence of SD quality video framed into widescreen and transmitted with exceptionally high quality black bars. Huh? The most ridiculous example was on PBS which took a 16:9 HD image, down converted it to SD in 4:3 aspect, added an HD quality logo overlay (ironically the best part of the broadcast), and then transmitted it the resulting nightmare in 16:9 HD with incredible black bars on four sides!
I fully admit that digital broadcast is entirely different from HD broadcast. But seriously, I'm watching the received bit rate on my HDHomeRun and the SD quality stuff is being transmitted using full HD frames.
Are broadcasters intentionally acting like fools? Are they subliminally hoping to push us to a pay service? Do they not own intelligent broadcast systems capable of framing and transmitting video in sensible ways? What's your take on the hilarious state of digital television and our vastly improved black bars? Does the old adage "You get what you pay for" now apply to television broadcasts?
I concur with GenKhan2.. digital broadcasters must be intentional acting like fools, I have the same problem here in the Boston area. I recently bought a 26 inch for my bedroom, but should have bought a 36 inch with the 16:9 content, cropped to 4:3, then cropped again to the 16:9 digital signal... that's just black bar silliness around the whole picture.
hey guys, great show, i really enjoyed the addition of nilay again. i'm the one responsible for this original post with my question to you guys last week. i'm almost sorry i created all these arguments in the comments. in my own defense, the reason i wrote this question to you last week wasn't because i wanted to "see all the lights" i paid for in my pioneer elite receiver. it was because i wanted to make sure i had my PS3 hooked up correctly to be taking advantage of the cash i shelled out for what i consider to be one of the more expensive and technolically advanced recievers on the market. while steve was researching the answer to my question, i was able to find this page:
http://whatsonhdtv.blogspot.com/2008/03/sony-playstation-3-and-blu-ray-audio.html
and this guy eric was REALLY helpful and helped me understand this process last week before you were able to replay to my email. simply put, the PS3 WILL decode the Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD MA codecs via bitstream, BUT it only sends the "core" information to the receiver this way. "core" meaning it only sends the digital info for a 5.1 setup, so if you have a 7.1 receiver and speaker setup, your wasting your extra two channels if you have it set to bitstream on the PS3. it's my understanding the way to truly take advantage of your 7.1 audio capabilities is to set the PS3 to output audio as Linear PCM otherwise you're only getting SOME of the audio on the disc, which is exactly why when you set your audio to bitstream on the PS3 you receive an onscreen message that says "If you select [Bitstream], some portions of audio from the BD may not be played." therefore, if you have the 7.1 receiver and speaker setup, the best way to truly use what your system is capable of is to set the audio to linear PCM. if you only have a 5.1 setup, i think the only difference in setting your PS3 to output audio as bitstream or Linear PCM is the LPCM is lossless and the bitstream is lossy. i'm more of a videophile myself so i really just want my picture to be as good as possible but since i just shelled out a TON of cash for a pioneer kuro elite tv and matching 7.1 elite receiver, i want to be taking advantage of my money spent as much as possible. after all the information i've gathered over the last 10 days, it seems as though if i TRULY want to take advantage of my gear, i need to add a better stand alone blu-ray player since the PS3 seems a bit gimped audio wise. i wish i would have known this since i just bought a second PS3 for my bedroom setup a few weeks ago. according to many of the websights i visit for AV news and reviews (this one included i may add) the PS3 is still considered one of the best blu-ray players on the market.
also, in order to possibly save steve some time, i did SEVERAL of my own tests with my PS3 last week when i was trying to figure this all out. hooking up the PS3 via HDMI and switching between bitsteam and linear PCM on 5 different kinds of discs. a blu-ray with DTS HDMA, a blu-ray with Dolby Digital True HD, a blu-ray with English 5.1 uncompressed, a DVD with DTS, and a DVD with Dolby Digital. here's what i discovered....NONE of these discs output as bitstream or LPCM caused the Dolby True HD or DTS HDMA lights on my receiver to light up. HOWEVER, if you set the PS3 to LPCM, the info bar on the PS3 will display Dolby True HD and DTS HDMA as the sound codec that is being output, if you set the PS3 to output as bitstream, the Dolby True HD and DTS HDMA will not show up as being output in the PS3 info bar. I am not an engineer, but i'm pretty sure that means in order to take advantage of the Dolby True HD or DTS HDMA you have to set the PS3 to LPCM or the system won't even TRY to output those sound codecs to the receiver. BUT i fail to understand why that won't make my reciever light up with the Dolby True HD or DTS HDMA indicators. I also dicovered that setting the output as LPCM and switching between audio tracks on the disc, the Dolby True HD or DTS HDMA tracks were louder than the regular Dolby Digital or DTS tracks. I realize that louder is not nessasarily better, but that's really the only difference i could make out of the two. which leads me to believe that the "better" audio output setting on the PS3 is Linear PCM. As far as i can tell, the only way to get the PS3 to output the Dolby True HD and DTS HDMA codecs is through the Linear PCM. Whether your reciever can decode the Dolby True HD and DTS HDMA codecs as bitstream from the PS3 or not, the point is moot since PS3 only outputs the "core" 5.1 digital info as bitstream anyway. if you want the higher end lossless sound codecs, you HAVE TO output as Linear PCM. of course if you only have a 5.1 set up i guess none of this matters right? i guess if i understand this correctly a true audiophile would want the lossless sound rather than the lossy, but then again, maybe i don't get it. after all this, one thing is for sure, i set my PS3 to output Linear PCM, i THINK i'm getting the best out of what i paid for, and i'm selling my brand new second PS3 so i can buy a Samsung BDP-3600.
I'd love to hear more on this subject if you guys have the time. I think your site and podcast are the perfect vehicles for these types of discussions. i'd really like to know more about the difference between bitstream and linear pcm and lossless and lossy audio since they pertain so much to HD viewing and listening.Until about10-12 days ago, i didn't know what any of these things meant. i just thought you hook up your gear via HDMI and the machines talk to each other to decide what's best. boy was i mistaken!
A few things...
#1 What you are calling Core 5.1 (DTS and DD) is different from a 5.1 DTS MA and TrueHD track. Most DTS MA ad True HD tracks are 5.1 and not 7.1. WHere DD and DTS are compressed, like mp3 audio, DTS MA and TrueHD are lossless, like a lossless WMA or AAC track. DTS MA and True HD when outputted either as LPCM or bitstreamed as DTS MA and True HD have higher highs and lower lows than the older formats.
Even if you have 5.1 system, it's better to use a lossless codec vs one of the legacy codecs. The difference is more than 5.1 vs 7.1.
#2 I would argue that the main reason to set any HD Player to decode inside the player vs bitstream is that you have support for playback of multiple audio tracks with internal decoding, but not for bitstreaming. Say you are watching a movie that has an option for a picture in picture video commentary (BonusView), if you bitstream, the second audio track that contains the commentary cannot be mixed by the player into the movie feature's track. If the player decodes internally, it can mix the commentary track with the main feature. If you are watching a movie with BonusView features, you have to have it decode internally and output the sound as LPCM or Analog.
Since you guys are talking Moxi and cable cards, I'll tell you my Comcast horror story. This story occurred in Bloomington, IN.
I bought a Tivo HD in Feb for $200 clearance at sears and got a friend that already had one to get me lifetime for $300 + tax. Before doing so, I called comcast and and asked what I would be charged and was told I could get a Mcard that would be free. Tech comes out ($20 charge for that crap) with 2 Mcards and says I need both. I tell him I don't. He ignores me and trys to install. TV+guide is working fine, but he can't get the cards activated (probably since the second is not even being used). Takes the 2 mcards, drives away, comes back with 2 scards. Installs them with me unhappy. Also, when he calls to activate, the gentleman on the phone told him he just screwed up the Mcard install, but he left the Mcards behind. I call Comcast immediately, but am told I won't be charged. Bill shows up with an extra $7 charge. I call Comcast and tell them I want Mcard, they schedule tech. Tech comes out late and tells me they don't have Mcards. I call Comcast, and am told again the don't have Mcards. I tell them I saw them. They tell me they weren't there and obviously don't believe me. I ask them if they tell me there are no such thing as cars if I should believe them. I ask to talk to supervisor, get put on hold, I start to hear general office noise, they hang up on me. I call back, and a different lady gave me some 6 month promotion worth about the same as the Scard. I ask what I should do after the 6month and they tell me just to call back for another promotion.
So be forewarned that cable company + cable card can equal headache. By the way, does anyone know where comcrap came from?
Nilay, why haven't you put a larger hdd in your tivo yet? Its pretty easy with the free winmfs.
Ben, Battlestar ended horribly. Be prepared for even more disappointment.
I just wanted to add an update that a friend of mine who lives about 4 miles from me told me that he got an mcard installed by comcast last week. This is the same week that I called and was told they don't have mcards.
Please more Battle Star and Lord of the Rings talk! Next week can you discuss the value of dungeons and dragons trading cards!
RSS feeds are not that hard to set up with bit torrent. I showed my father how to use bit torrent+RSS. hes been going strong for the past 3 or so years. Back then i gave him a modded Xbox to stream to the TV. He knows how to search the web for torrents, create new filters/sub, etc.
It may be hard to figure out from reading but if someone shows you its not that complicated.
A 1 hour and 41 minute podcast. Talk about long winded.
SHUTUP BENNIE!
MOAR NILAY!
Hey, can you guys do an article on using PRO Audio equipment (amps, speakers,etc) for your hometheater instead for the more pricey and less powerful HT gear.
Thanks
That podcast was straight bangin' and it was great to hear Nilay join in. I wanted to comment on your idea that the average undergrad uses bittorrent regularly. I would have to say that P2P as a whole (including Limewire etc) is certainly the most used, but I'm the only one of all the people I know that really uses bittorrent as the primary way of getting content. Like you say, it is just too complicated for the average user. I def agree with you that the idea of copyright is a non-issue for my generation however.
You guys have talked a couple of times about the mess that is online delivery of content to the ten foot interface. I was wondering why content providers and cable providers don't just get together and offer sites like HULU as value added services that require a cable subscription in order to watch?
For example a model like ESPN 360 requiring a certain cable provider in order to watch. The cable distributors could strike a deal with NBC (In the case of HULU) to validate that the user is a cable subscriber or premium content subscriber (HBO) before they watch. Seems like it would solve a lot of problems.
Thanks for a great podcast. Nilay was a blast as always. I do have a question about the Zune HD, and its supposed widescreen display. While HD makes no sense for a PMP, would widescreen displays on a PMP make any sense? Right now the the only real 4:3 displays being made are in PMPs like the iPods, Zunes, and Zens of the world.
Thank you so much for making me rethink my parenting skills. Now I have to move them to a remote island so that my kids don't think that all media is free. Sorry kids, daddy will see you when you're 18, he needs to get season 3 of The Dukes of Hazzard off of Mininova.
Ni lay!
Ni lay!
Ni lay!
Another good show and good to hear Nilay again. I had a few comments about recorded TV and the MOXI implementation because I just don't get Ben.
Owner of a DYI Windows VISTA MC PC with 750G HD.
I have owned one these boxes within the last ten (10) years: First Dish PVR (Microsoft Product - Pink screen of death), 1st gen DTV TIVO (good PVR), Ultimate TV (best PVR imho), 1st gen MOXI (cable) and Media Center (2005, Vista, W7).
Almost all had default settings for Recording TV. So my experience with Recorded TV is mostly with media center. A household of four. Sixty (60) series recordings. NBA basketball is the top rated show. During playoffs there may be four games and I set basketball series default to record 30 minutes over. I notice what MC will overwrite shows when not watched to make room for new shows. When a recorded show is watched halfway, that show seems to move lower in the queue (less likely to be deleted). Every once in a while I set a show to NOT delete for a week (keep for a week from today). So, the DVR is always full with some recorded shows set to not delete.
My guess is that MC does NOT implement a first in, first out queue. A show settings determines when the show gets deleted. What I have seen is an intelligent algo where the shows you want to watch stay the longest in the queue. This is the keep at least setting. The shows that have lower priority are the shows that get removed to make room for new shows to record. I like this. After I have finished watching a high priority basketball show, these basketball shows are removed to make room for new shows. Maybe if all the shows have the same priority to keep, then I can see a first in first out. The problem with that is, shows that air frequently will populate your queue the most.
Keep up the good work.
Patiently waiting for Windows7 and DTV or DYI cable card support!!!
KJ