Even as the past year has been
cruel to plasma, we've
stood by the "old" gas capsule technology. The results of DisplayMate's controlled tests clearly show some of the reasons why we
love us some plasma. The lineup of 2008-vintage, top of the line LCDs from Samsung, Sharp and Sony were calibrated and pitted against a top-end Pansonic plasma. You'll have to hit the link to get the full blow-by-blow results, but suffice it to say that the plasma set trumped the LCDs in the areas of contrast, color accuracy (to be fair, the Sony came close) and black level -- both on and off axis. Even for LCD fans, these results show that the side of the box with its inflated specs is no place to look for indications of picture quality. For those already in the know about plasma, though, there's a lot of reason to hope that even if the technology is in its autumn years, there's an Indian summer up ahead.
[Via
TVSnob]
posted Jul 13th 2009 1:38PM
Um, all of the LCD's used in the shoot out are CCFL models, not exactly the leading edge of LCD display technology.
I guess we'll have to wait until 2011 for them to do a Plasma vs LED LCD shoot out?
The Samsung LN-T5281F is a LED-backlit model.
led lcd... did you drink the kool-aid? led lcd is a marketing gimmick.
I stand corrected.
The Sammy IS an LED backlight model, but the other two are CCFL.
Granted the author did say that "Differences between the 2008 and 2009 models are primarily in their marketing hype.", but despite the hype of 120/240/480 hz scan and other marketing fluff, I find it to believe that there are no measureable improvments between 2008 and 2009 models.
LCD the acronym for Low Contrast Display or Limited Color Display
Long Live Plasma!
It's a shame that so few people care about accuracy. Whether it be audio accuracy or video accuracy, most people don't even know there ARE such things as industry-wide calibration standards. And then there are the people who know about the standards, but are more concerned with personal preference than accuracy. So finally, we are left with this teeny-tiny percentage of the population who actually cares, and while we are often willing to pay a premium for accurate performance, we just don't hold enough market clout to really matter in the end.
As Stephen Colbert has said, people enjoy bringing "democracy to knowledge". The mass market out there "knows" that LCD is better than plasma because the majority says so. It doesn't have to be true in order to be "truthy". It's the same way that Bose and Monster Cable manage to keep peddling their wares to all of the ignorant masses who "know" that Bose and Monster Cable are "the best" because the ads, salespeople and their friends all say so.
The world is a sad, sad place :(
I think Monster Cables are lame and overpriced, but Bose speakers are great! Why dont you like Bose?
In order to be "accurate" at anything, you would need to know what 100% accuracy is. Since most people will never be exposed to professional calibrators, let them live in their ignorant bliss, less they be cursing every screen and pair of headphones they ever encounter for the rest of their lives.
gotjf - I'm talking about the Bose "cube" speakers with their "bass modules", like the "Acoustimass" speakers. I can't tell in text form whether you're just joking (I hope that you are). If you are joking - I agree with your humor. But if you are not joking, I have to wonder about your hearing.
Why do I hate Bose? Because they charge $1000 for a 5.1 speaker package that has lower sound quality than a $150 package from MCM and WAY lower sound quality than a $300 package from tSc. I hate Bose because their $2000+ "Lifestyle" HTiB systems are nothing but distortion-laden, recessed mid-range, zero-bass-below-60 Hz, hole-in-the-frequency-response, zero-highs-above-8 kHz pieces of garbage!
But more than anything, I hate Bose because people actually believe that what I just described is "good" or even "great" sound! And why do they think that? Because the ads, salespeople and equally misled friends all say so. Like I said...it's a sad, sad world.
dagamer43 - you mean that I should suffer alone? :p
You pretty much described my experience with consumer electronics! I curse almost every display, HTiB and set of headphones that I encounter!
"Hey - check out these new Beats by Dr. Dre Headphones made by Monster Cable!" says the salesperson. "They are the best headphones you'll ever hear!"
I put them on...no music playing yet...
"hisssssssssss"
"What's that constant hiss I'm hearing?" I ask.
"What?" says the sales person.
"That hiss. There's a constant hiss. Is that the noise cancellation? Or is it just the crappy built-in amplifier?"
"I don't know! I didn't notice any hiss. Here...listen to some music! It'll knock your socks off!"
Thump...thump...thump. Screech...screech...screech. Shrill sound....shrill sound...thump...thump...screech.
"Are you kidding me? These sound really, REALLY bad."
*looking at me like I'm crazy* "Maybe you're just not used to hearing music the way it is SUPPOSED to sound."
"Is that right? Here...tell you what...have a listen with my Shure SE530 earphones, k?"
*after many minutes of fumbling and showing the salesperson how to wear a pair of in-ear monitors
"Yeah...these sound really good too. But The Beats are just more accurate. It's how it's supposed to sound...like in the studio."
"Oh...you mean like what it says on the side of the box? Yeah...that's not how things sound in a studio. If there was a constant background hiss from a crappy little amplifier and major distortion in the high-end along with flabby one-note bass? I don't think Dr. Dre would be too happy with that studio. Enjoy your plastic, shiny, fingerprint magnets though. I'm sorry for your ears."
Sadness...
Plasma panels cost more and consume more power.
Many people are just looking for a cost effective solution that is "good enough".
Even if you point out the differences, and the consumer agrees, you will still run into the "and this will cost me HOW much more per year in energy costs?". To many, it is just not worth it.
Ordeith - those are two more misconceptions right there!
If we're talking equal (or nearly equal) sized screens, plasmas are NOT more expensive than LCDs. I mean sure, you can find one LCD model that is cheaper than a similarly sized plasma, but you can also find a plasma that is cheaper than a similarly sized LCD.
Just a really quick glance at Best Buy - let's say 40" or 42" 1080p (a very common choice)
We've got an LG, a Samsung and a Toshiba - all 40" 1080p LCD all going for $799, then we've got a 1080p 42" Panasonic plasma for $849, then we've got LG, Samsung and Sony 40" LCDs all for $899 along with another Panny plasma 42" 1080p at the very same $899 price point.
Obviously, none of these are the "top-of-the-line" models - but if we're just talking about bargain hunters, you really can't say that LCD is always significantly cheaper than plasma - they're VERY much all in the same ball park price range!
On the power consumption issue - I can fully agree that the LED backlit (especially the local dimming versions) LCDs consumer considerably less power than plasmas. But if we're talking about CCFL backlit LCDs (which are the less expensive ones - the cheapest 1080p 40" LED backlit LCD at Best Buy is $1599!) then power consumption in the real world is very close to that of plasma. With a CCFL backlight, that backlight is on all the time, no matter what! Sure, if we're showing nothing but a pure white screen for 24 hours, the plasma will consumer much more energy. But in the real world, most content is a mix of bright and dim images and plasmas use less energy when there is a dim scene; CCFL backlit LCDs do not.
In real world terms, modern plasmas use about the same amount of electricity as CCFL backlit LCDs. I'll fully agree that the LED backlit LCDs use less power, but you also have to pay a considerably higher price for them! If people are buying based on price - how many years would they have to run a LED backlit LCD just to make up for the rather significant price difference?
You know, accuracy is one thing but what's pleasing is often another. Even back in the film photo days people would often prefer film that gave pretty skewed colors in photos because those photos just looked better.
Ditto for digital cameras. Just because you could theoretically make a picture perfectly accurate doesn't mean that the picture is actually going to be pleasing or even preferable to 99% of people.
And anyways even knowing that plasma is technically more accurate I prefer LCDs because of the weight (thick glass panels aren't exactly easy to deal with moving around) and the power consumption (although the newer plasmas are getting better). Plasmas came out way before LCDs but to be honest HDTVs didn't sell nearly in as much volume until LCDs came out. People just like them, not everyone gives a crap about utmost accuracy.
the4thheat - I agree with you! Many (perhaps even most) people DO prefer an inaccurate picture to an accurate one. They like bright, vibrant colors, enhanced contrast and basically anything that makes the image "pop" or "jump off the screen".
But some of us prefer for grass to look like real grass rather than neon, glowing green and we prefer our apples to look like something that occurs in nature, rather than being the shade of a bright red balloon.
Having accurate image reproduction does not limit in any way the use of different camera techniques in order to achieve the desired artistic result. If the artist - the person creating the content - wants that grass to look neon or that apple to look like the shade of a Radio Flyer Wagon, that's fine! That's artistic licence. And if that is how they intended for things to look, then that is how I want to see it portrayed on my TV. But if they intended for the grass to look the way grass looks if I'm seeing it live and in person or they intended for that apple to look like something I could actually buy at the supermarket, then I want for my TV to portray it THAT way.
You're right - most people want to be "wowed", but if they were better educated and understood the process and how much care and work goes into making movies and TV shows, perhaps some of them would care more about seeing an accurate picture - one that preserves the artists' intent.
For those of us who already care, we just hope to sway more people to our side! It may take a long time and a lot of effort and even after all that, it may never happen, but that doesn't mean that we should give up! There was a time when everyone "knew" that the Earth was flat. They were comfortable with that idea. They preferred it that way. If we follow your insinuation, I guess the people who were actually correct never should have pressed on with the idea that the Earth is round. Heck, we've still got people who believe that dinosaurs lived at the same time as early Man, so I'm under no illusion that educating people is HARD.
:D
I understand Plasma has evolved just like any other technology over the years. However, is" Burn-in" and "Reflection" no longer a concern with Plasma? As someone who has his share of windows around the TV, "reflection" is a HUGE concern. As for Gamers and people that watch a given channel for long periods of time (with logo in corner of screen), "Burn-in" can be a HUGE concern. If these two problems are still an issue with Plasma, then all of your points are moot. Since "Reflection" & "Burn-in" if they take place, are FAR bigger issues then Black-levels & Contrast Ratios. I believe these two concerns partly explain why LCDs have been the consumers choice, even if it has been more expensive then similar sized Plasmas.
It is truly sad that when the avg comsumer walks into a big box store and told by close-to-minumum-wage-earning salespeople about the latest and greaterst 480Hz and 960Hz and 5,363Hz LCD's, he's automatically sold.
I bought me some KURO plasma during the fire sale after Pioneer announced the death of the line and am constantly asked by friends and relatives why my picture looks so good. They tell me that they weren't even aware Pioneer MADE HDTVs.... sad.
You and me both brother. I bought my 5020FD from Costco shortly after the announcement as well. When I told my father, he bought the same TV. And he hadn't even been looking to buy a TV.
Kuro to the end. Pioneer's plasma line will be greatly missed. At least I have the satisfaction of knowing that by the time I am looking to buy a TV, technology and the rest of the industry should have caught up with my Kuro.
People still don't realize plasma is better than LCD? Nothing beats a Panny plasma.
I agree. I love my 50PZ700
Nothing but a Pioneer Kuro Elite. ;)
I'll stand by my Kuro... LCDs are garbage... I saw an LED the other day and I was pretty imporessed.... LCDs are so 2000 and late...
A few weeks back, my parents were looking to buy a 50" HDTV for their living room. The living room is fairly wide, with a giant couch that spans about 20 feet. They consistently have company over and the TV is quite often used by up to a 10 people at once. I told them the only option was Plasma, and they found a great deal on one of the new Panasonic G series.
I got a phone call from them at the store, worried. The sales person basically looked at them like they had some kind of disease. "Why on earth would you buy a plasma".
I thought this article sounded familiar. It's sourced from a NYT article dated 6/30.
Well...a Pioneer Elite Kuro plasma beats a Panny plasma, but if we're talking about TVs that are still being manufactured, then yes...nothing beats a Panny V10 plasma :)
I could not agree with what you all are saying! I work at a high-end A/V store and Plasma's are what we sell the most of in their size range. The new LED BACKLIT models, they are NOT NOT NOT LED TV's, no matter what Samsung says, but they are MUCH more expensive than the Plasma's with comparable picture quality. I own a 50PZ80u and LOVE it, the only down side is I find that the LCD manufactures tend to be further ahead when it comes to adding the internet features to their sets. I find Sony and Samsung to be leaps and bounds ahead of Panasonic as far as their partners. Picture quality HANDS-DOWN goes to the Plasma and the ONLY thing that will change my mind is when OLED sets become large enough and inexpensive enough to be viable in today's market.
Plasma rules and LCD drooles and is always trying to perform like a Plasma. It ain't gonna happen. Panasonic Rocks and Kuro we will miss you.
Tell us something we don't know.
Oh right, most people don't know.
Eight out of ten people I talk to are under the impression that LCD is batter than plasma. Either from what they read or are told at B&M stores or poorly informed friends. I suggest that most folks here on this site cop this article (I just did) and use it when friends ask which is better, plasma or LCD.
Webdev511,
you either didnt read the article, or you must be a tv n00b. the test included the samsung 81 series- one of the best lcds ever. still, a big waste of time though- these were stated as being 2008 models when in fact theyre all from 07'. you would think an R&D firm named DISPLAYMATE would know better...
gotjf - I'm talking about the Bose "cube" speakers with their "bass modules", like the "Acoustimass" speakers. I can't tell in text form whether you're just joking (I hope that you are). If you are joking - I agree with your humor. But if you are not joking, I have to wonder about your hearing.
Why do I hate Bose? Because they charge $1000 for a 5.1 speaker package that has lower sound quality than a $150 package from MCM and WAY lower sound quality than a $300 package from tSc. I hate Bose because their $2000+ "Lifestyle" HTiB systems are nothing but distortion-laden, recessed mid-range, zero-bass-below-60 Hz, hole-in-the-frequency-response, zero-highs-above-8 kHz pieces of garbage!
But more than anything, I hate Bose because people actually believe that what I just described is "good" or even "great" sound! And why do they think that? Because the ads, salespeople and equally misled friends all say so. Like I said...it's a sad, sad world.
dagamer43 - you mean that I should suffer alone? :p
You pretty much described my experience with consumer electronics! I curse almost every display, HTiB and set of headphones that I encounter!
"Hey - check out these new Beats by Dr. Dre Headphones made by Monster Cable!" says the salesperson. "They are the best headphones you'll ever hear!"
I put them on...no music playing yet...
"hisssssssssss"
"What's that constant hiss I'm hearing?" I ask.
"What?" says the sales person.
"That hiss. There's a constant hiss. Is that the noise cancellation? Or is it just the crappy built-in amplifier?"
"I don't know! I didn't notice any hiss. Here...listen to some music! It'll knock your socks off!"
Thump...thump...thump. Screech...screech...screech. Shrill sound....shrill sound...thump...thump...screech.
"Are you kidding me? These sound really, REALLY bad."
*looking at me like I'm crazy* "Maybe you're just not used to hearing music the way it is SUPPOSED to sound."
"Is that right? Here...tell you what...have a listen with my Shure SE530 earphones, k?"
*after many minutes of fumbling and showing the salesperson how to wear a pair of in-ear monitors
"Yeah...these sound really good too. But The Beats are just more accurate. It's how it's supposed to sound...like in the studio."
"Oh...you mean like what it says on the side of the box? Yeah...that's not how things sound in a studio. If there was a constant background hiss from a crappy little amplifier and major distortion in the high-end along with flabby one-note bass? I don't think Dr. Dre would be too happy with that studio. Enjoy your plastic, shiny, fingerprint magnets though. I'm sorry for your ears."
Sadness...
Until Best Buy, Walmart, Sears and every other big retail store that sell plasma's change the way those panels are viewed in the store, LCD's will always win in the sales category.
The lighting in those store make plasmas look absolutely dull and lifeless.
If plasma's want to really sell, they need get bigger and cheaper. Also get the stores to get better lighting to really show off the display.
Believe it or not, it is not the retail store that is responsible for the way the displays are viewed in-store. Every set manufactured is shipped that way from the factory. All manufacturers do that because it grabs the eyes of the people (most often uneducated) who walk by them in the store and, as such, it entices them to buy. So, some places decide to calibrate a few displays, such as some Best Buy stores, to convince potential customers to purchase their calibration service just so that Best Buy can make more money.
So, I'll submit that it is the manufacturers causing the problems by not shipping calibrated sets. If the sets were calibrated when they left the factory, I am sure the situation would be much different than it already is. However, since calibration ultimately depends on the source, manufacturers probably figure that the effort to calibrate each set before it leaves the factor is not cost effective, and what is cost effective is to ship the set with wacked out settings that most stores will never change and that lure the average consumer to buy them.
For some people, it isn't just being able to afford nice equipment. I would like a nice, large HDTV, a nice receiver, and PSB surroundsound setup I've had my eye on for awhile now. But I live in a cramped studio apartment where my bed takes up 50% of the room and I only have the 6' to get the viewing distance for a 32" LCD. My lease even forbids stereos with subwoofer so I am living on vicariously with a $200 Sony 5.1 setup I have to use as a 2.1.
I am jealous of you Kuro users. My uncle has a plasma Pioneer Elite HDTV. Although it is maybe 4 years old or longer now, I have yet to see a TV that comes remotely close to the beauty of that picture.
I feel for ya, Shenanigans :(
Certainly, if you are limited to a smaller than 40" screen size, LCD pretty much becomes your only choice. There have been one or two plasma models in the 30"-39" range, but I don't know of any current plasma models that are that small.
I don't hate LCD. I actually think some of them look pretty darn good! What we're fighting though is the completely incorrect PERCEPTION, held by the masses, that LCD is actually superior to plasma. Obviously, the LCD makers are very happy to encourage that misconception! And the retailers are happy to encourage the misconception as well if it means they can make an easier or more profitable sale. And with all the ads and salespeople saying that LCD is "better", well, it's easy to understand why the masses believe it is so!
All you're seeing here is the backlash from people who are actually educated about consumer electronics and would prefer to be able to buy highly accurate, high performance equipment at reasonable prices! We aren't all rich. A lot of us sacrifice in other areas of our lives so that we can dedicate more of our income to home theater gear! We want bargains, deals and high value too! But we know that in order to get low prices, sales of the products that we like have to happen in high volume!
Unfortunately, all throughout history, the masses go for less than accurate, less than high quality products. And since those are the products that sell in the highest volume, those are the products that drop in price, are widely available and get advertised and recommended by sales people.
We just want to educate more (WAY more) people so that the masses will actually start buying the products that we - the enthusiasts - prefer. I you, personally, were faced with the decision to either buy an inaccurate, lower performance TV or an accurate, high performance TV, but the accurate, high performance TV cost $100 more, you might still pick the inaccurate, lower performance TV - simply because of the price. That's understandable, but if you know what that extra $100 is getting you, you might decide to spring for it. Many people might decide to spring for it, if they knew what they were getting.
What we have with the LCD vs. Plasma battle though is a situation where the better performing technology isn't even more expensive than the lower performing technology. And yet people are STILL buying the lower performing technology! Why? Because of MISinformation. They are actually being told WRONG information and they are believing it because, well, that wrong information is coming at them from every direction!
If I have 100 people telling me to buy LCD and only 1 person telling me to buy plasma and I know nothing about TVs, I'm probably going to listen to the 100 people. That's just normal decision making. I can be aware that all 100 people might be wrong and that 1 person is actually the only one with the right answer, but how am I to know that? That's the situation we've got. All of us here basically feel like that 1 person vs. the 100 and no matter how loud we scream, no matter how solid of an argument we make, we just seem like the 1 crazy person while the 100 wrong people all agree and therefore seem right.
Having a limited budget doesn't mean you have to settle for lower performance equipment. It's just that getting high performance equipment is going to be a bigger hassle for you. You'll have to do things like buy used equipment, bargain hunt, look for sales or grab hand-me-downs. But if you are well educated, you can keep your eyes and ears peeled for those deals. An uneducated person is just going to walk into a store and buy what ever he can afford.
Being educated and well-informed often makes life more difficult. People think it should make things easier, but it doesn't. Ignorance really can be bliss :p
Ummm, yeah, and betamax had better picture quality over VHS. When it comes to consumer electronics, it's not about which is "best" but where the line for "good enough" is... LCD has the wow factor, less power, less weight, less heat, and is "good enough" for 95% of consumer electronics owners.
Sad, but true.
When shopping for a TV I took my 9 year old daughter to several stores and at each store asked her, "Which one has the best picture?" Every single time she picked a plasma. That was enough of an unbiased opinion for me. Besides, she's got sharper eyes. We bought a Panasonic plasma and have never for a second regretted it.
Yeah, I was wrong about the Sammy, but you're mistaken about the year/models. They were released in 2007, but the are in fact 2008 models. Even so, I think you'd be hard pressed to find any of those LCDs for sale in a stat other than used or refurbished.
that was supposed to be @corey smith
nuh uh, webdev,
i know the xbr4 is from 07' because it was released with my first tv, my 40v3000, which i bought in september of that year. i also remember the 81' series samsung being released with the 120hz 71' series in 07', because i found it strange that the 81' was missing the 120hz processing (turned out it was quicker than 120hz lcds!).
I recently purchased an 50in elite kuro and am extremely content with my viewing purchase. Seeing a great plasma tv, whether a Pioneer kuro or a high end Panny is a feast on ones eyes. I have seen many lcd's and believe me that I could not watch more than 10min of picture for it is too overly bright and whats with Psuedo 3d video thats so unnatural like that it is so fake. Oh and I am not even going to write about the black levels/contrast! With my Kuro I can easily watch TV late night without strainning my eyes like when I used to with my old sony lcd I used to have.
Wow, testing an XBR-4. LCD has improved quite a lot from the XBR-4. Way to stack the deck there Display Mate.
I am impressed with Plasma in a dark theater room. I am far from impressed with Plasma in anything that resembles a real living room. That said Samsung's insistence on high gloss panels ruins their LCD sets as well.
here, this is a review with a XBR8, is this new enough?
http://www.hometheatermag.com/lcds/face_off_at_the_hdtv_corral/
Golly, you're right! I've never EVER seen a REAL living room with curtains or a light switch! They just don't exist! Not in the REAL world!
Been a big plasma supporter for years. I still am impressed with my Kuro two years after I bought it.
I love my 50' 720p Samsung plasma!!!! I have a lcd in my bedroom but I always watch T.V in the living room because I love the picture.
Knew it knew it knew it .... Love my Panasonic plasma.
Anyone with any brains at all has known plasma is better for a long time. LCD is catching up, but plasma still has the better picture.
Plasmas my produce better contrast and color reproduction but I just can't get over one annoying thing about them. Pixel spacing. Is it just me or does it seem like the pixels on plasma sets are just not close and tight enough like LCDs? It's enough to distract me from the experience. 1080p Plasmas are less obvious but you can literally see where one pixel begins and where it ends on 720p sets.
These TVs are 2-3 years old. Again, engadget bloggers, please read the articles you are posting to. What you've done here is put up an an article depicting a brand new panasonic TV, but the article is about TVs that existed two whole generations ago.
I understand Plasma has evolved just like any other technology over the years. However, is" Burn-in" and "Reflection" no longer a concern with Plasma? As someone who has his share of windows around the TV, "reflection" is a HUGE concern. As for Gamers and people that watch a given channel for long periods of time (with logo in corner of screen), "Burn-in" can be a HUGE concern. If these two problems are still an issue with Plasma, then all of your points are moot. Since "Reflection" & "Burn-in" if they take place, are FAR bigger issues then Black-levels & Contrast Ratios. I believe these two concerns partly explain why LCDs have been the consumers choice, even if it has been more expensive then similar sized Plasmas.