Blu-ray reportedly trailing CBHD in China, the second theater of the format war begins
By Richard Lawler 
posted Jul 25th 2009 6:03PM
posted Jul 25th 2009 6:03PM
[Via FormatWarCentral]
posted Jul 25th 2009 6:03PM
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OOOOOOOOH NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
...
I smell another MFM comment! Surely, this makes it clear that Blu-ray is clearly doomed! Doomed, I say, doomed...
Only in China would the name of the format be a rip-off of the competitor!! I'm gonna need a China Blue player if Johnnie To and Andrew Lau films are realeased in the format. Exiled in 1080p, sign me up.
Guess which version is the expensive authorized version.
kcmurphy88@ Guess which version is the expensive authorized version?
If you are referring to the pictured cases shown in the article, they are both authorized by Warner Bros. CBHD cases are black instead of red like HD DVD.
The blue one pictured is around four times more expensive than the black one.
Which if true might explain the discrepancy although it wouldn't explain why there was such a massive disparity in prices to start with.
DrXym - think of CBHD as the ultimate form of region encoding. Back an incompatible standard that doesn't work outside of China, and you can sell cheap discs to the Chinese that will never (or rarely) work outside of the country.
The Chinese have made a big deal about CBHD being "their" standard that they have no intention of exporting players for. Now you know why.
I see CBHD as being an impediment to piracy but hardly any more likely to prevent it than Blu-Ray does. It also doesn't explain the assertion that Blu might be 4x as expensive as CBHD. Perhaps it is but I'd like to understand why with evidence.
DrXym - region encoding, not piracy.
Region encoding is about being able to treat different markets differently. You want to sell discs at a lower price in China than you do in the US because Americans are richer than Chinese, in general.
If those same discs are sold cheaply in China and can play on US, Australian, or European Blu-ray players, then people can and will buy legitimate discs in China and export them to those richer countries.
If, on the other hand, the discs are completely incompatible - to the point that you'd have to physically manufacture a new optical drive in order to read them - with players in those markets, then you can sell the discs for 10c each (exaggeration) and not risk undermining the other markets.
That's what I mean about CBHD being the ultimate form of region coding, and why it means CBHD discs can be sold at a much lower price than Blu-ray discs. The aim is to sell media at a price the local market can afford. As long as China keeps CBHD players off the International market, this should work out very well for those who take part.
Do you really think people are lining up to buy original blu ray disks from China? It doesn't happen for DVDs and it wouldn't happen for Blu Ray discs either. The market for Chinese original disks is practically zero. Even if it did become an issue, the answer would be simple - forced or hardcoded subtitles and other deterrents.
Region encoding whether a few control bits on the Blu Ray disc or a entirely new physical format isn't going to prevent piracy one jot. Using a new format to prevent a non-existent problem makes no sense either.
DrXym - are you retarded? Seriously? The very first line of my comment pointed out that the reason was REGION ENCODING and ____NOT____ PIRACY.
And you respond as if it's about piracy.
It's not about piracy. It's about being able to sell discs cheaply (affordably) in China without the risk the cheap disks will play on players outside of China. It's that simple. PIRACY IS IRRELEVANT.
A government sponsored format in a communist dictatorship. Pathetic!
Toshiba to make a Blu-ray player?
Since when and says who?
You're making a deal about an old single unsubstantiated report in a Japanese newspaper.
Checking around the net, there was also some BS about how the report came out on a Friday, Monday was a Japanese holiday and that meant we wouldn't get anything from Toshiba themselves until Tues
(now long since past.......and how terribly convenient for the PR spinning liars).
Funnily enough despite the Japanese paper claiming Toshiba had actually made an 'announcement' we have had in fact no announcement whatsoever
(go chech the original PC World translation).
So, now that we can see YToshiba have in fact made no such announcement I'd like to know on what reasonable basis (other than this now thoroughly discredited report and you own obvious wishful thinking) are you claiming Toshiba is going to produce a Blu-ray player?
You see this is why I prefer fact and verifiable fact, not PR & rumours.
There is in fact no substantive basis to claim Toshiba made any such comment.
Wow do you really care that much ?
I'd like to know why anyone cares. Darren Murph went on for months demanding to know why Toshiba hadn't produced a Blu-ray player, with DrXym and the rest venting their anger that a CE manufacturer would not have such a thing out. Then the rumors come out that they might, and suddenly it's also a big deal.
Everything's pretty much gone as I expected and predicted (in terms of Toshiba's response to the market.) Toshiba held off to see how Blu-ray was doing. It didn't believe that BD was going to be a success (which is why the DVD Forum came up with a different standard in the first place. If everyone agreed from the start BD was going to actually be popular, there wouldn't have been a f---ing standards war), it was $3B in the red thanks to HD DVD and needed to be careful about how it was spending its money, and so it sat out and wait.
And now BD has some traction, there are some reports that it might consider a limited entry into the BD market, making a player (not a recorder) that very well be nothing more than a rebadged model from a partner given all we know about it.
It all makes sense, but for some reason some of the more hysterical anti-BD voices aren't willing to countenance any chance of the story being accurate, and the Blutards continue to bitch and moan about Toshiba's refusal to run by their timetable.
My guess? The story was true. Toshiba wants people to buy Toshiba. They'll pick a third party model that's of decent quality, brand it, and sell it as their own. Meanwhile they'll continue to develop products that have a better chance of long term viability than a format which is 100% dependent upon plastic discs.
Wow, let's completely ignore the massive bulk of the article, and find one thing rag on... because the whole "totalitarian regime" thing lets the air out of any sail (even one with no air!).
-Pie
Sorry squiggleslash, I've never vented any "anger" about Toshiba and when they will support Blu Ray. I've certainly posted comments sharing my opinion, but that isn't the same thing at all.
Pie
"rag on"!?
I merely asked a perfectly valid question (in the light of the linkage/assertion the writer made).
Laughably defensive much?
What's up, is it that any sense of accuracy and honesty just doesn't really matter when putting together the BD PR myth, huh?
As I said, everyone is ragging on each other. Sheesh.
Just a few corrections. Bozster, you have previously claimed to have no agenda, yet you're a totally rude in your response... and still supposed to believe the "no agenda" argument. Most importantly, you ADD to what I said, but don't actually correct or contradict anything (yeah, the BDA was greedy too... too, not *instead of*).
Similarly, Squiggle, I named ONE company that developed AOD. I didn't say Toshiba *alone*. My goal was a quick historical rundown, which I gave. Which is accurate.
Sheesh guys, go home and get a beer (I don't drink and was out surfing instead). The point of HD is for *entertainment* and *enjoyment*, not to be bitter, rag on each other, and complain. Have we really forgotten that?
-Pie
Eating Pie - your point about AOD falls apart the moment it's clear it's a development of two DVD Forum heavyweights rather than some proprietary Toshiba technology. That's why I pointed out it was a co-production, and yes, you did imply it was Toshiba alone that developed it.
"It didn't believe that BD was going to be a success (which is why the DVD Forum came up with a different standard in the first place."
Good one... oh wait. Squiggledash, go back and read some history.
The DVD Forum DID NOT develop AOD. Toshiba did. AOD was NOT developed because Toshiba thought BD wasn't going to be a success. It was developed as a successor to DVD (almost) in parallel to Blu-ray's development, and both were to be either combined into a single format or both submitted separately to the DVD Forum and one chosen (Blu-ray never was officially voted on). AOD was ultimately chosen by politics over technology. A change in the lead company on the forum, and a rule change about abstentions caused a vote that failed to accept AOD one month, to suddenly succeed a few months later. Thus HD-DVD was born. (Just to be clear, I'm not saying that AOD was bad technology, I'm saying *politics* winning out is a bad reason for it to be picked.)
So your whole technology claim is incorrect.
And thanks to some very greedy people, and some horrible corporate politics, here we are ragging on each other, complaining to EngadgetHD, and generally not having fun with the successor to DVD like we should be! DVD Forum, thanks indeed.
-Pie
Again, you are talking out of your ass.. where do you get your information for christ sake.
If you actually bothered to read and talk to people who were involved you would understand why and how Blu-ray and HD DVD standard came to be and why HD DVD was a much better spec-ed out and thought out standard. Blu-ray standard was presented to DVD Forum but DVD Forum wanted to created a more consumer friendly format. Blu-ray was years away from actually being finished. Another issue was that it required completely revamping everything and questions about replication while DVD Forum and Toshiba itself wanted a format that introduced high level of interactivity, replied on DVD replication and provided cheap transition offering something more then just picture and audio quality to consumers. So HD DVD standard was finalized and presented to DVD Forum and accepted as it solved many problems Blu-ray didn't really have answered at that point.
All valid points from DVD Forum side that led to development of HDi of which Disney itself supported and was involved in creating. Microsoft was on board with both formats at the beginning but shared the same concerns as DVD Forum in terms of replication costs (that in fact we see even today 3 years into the format) and even though MS wasn't a member of DVD Forum they offered their assistance to both parties and when BDA didn't even want to talk to them, they picked HD DVD side.
About all of this, I actually chatted with multiple people who were on actual meetings back then and Vice President of Microsoft's division in charge of this development.
It's very simple. Blu-ray was a format that was poorly spec-ed out would require a lot of sacrifices from consumers to adopt and HD DVD was presented as an alternative to solve those issues, that's why even today HD DVD that's now gone is still better and more finished then Blu-ray is, including Managed Copy and region free support.
And I forgot to add.. Greed indeed, but not from DVD Forum or Toshiba's side. More like from BDA and the fact they drooled over idea that people would have to repurchase everything, rely on Sony and BDA's 3C (main companies) for all Blu-ray needs filling their pockets with $$.
There is no doubt that Blu-ray format was an awesome thing for CE manufacturers and those who would do replication (in this case Sony) because they knew they would be selling you and cashing in on everything with Blu-ray, starting with replication, floating standard where you would beta test and repurchase multiple players in order to use all features that would be rolled out in stages. A gold mine, that has absolutely zero consumer interest in mind.
If anything Toshiba and DVD Forum were indeed the good guys here. Not BDA, that's for sure.
EP - You're not seriously suggesting that the major difference between HD DVD and Blu-ray was the physical disc storage system are you? (Or that AOD was Toshiba's own technology, not a system co-developed with NEC?)
Here's a little history lesson for you. The Format war nearly ended in 2005. HP and Microsoft went to the BDA, and told them that if mandatory managed copy and Advanced Content (HDi) were accepted into the Blu-ray standard, they'd drop support for HD DVD (effectively killing it at the time.) Despite overwhelming industry support, Sony vetoed the addition of Advanced Content to Blu-ray.
The two together were important because they would have have changed Blu-ray from being "DVD on steroids" to the first step in an integrated online/offline movie distribution format that, ultimately, would have been media independent. That's ultimately what the DVD Forum saw as the future of content distribution. That's what Microsoft sees as the future of content distribution. That, actually, is what everyone beyond a small group of hold-outs see as the future.
Sony, for whatever their reasons, killed Advanced Content on Blu-ray, which killed the concept of Blu-ray being a system with any long term viability. So the DVD Forum plodded on, and we ended up with a format war. And those same reasons have been why Microsoft and Toshiba didn't suddenly jump into Blu-ray after the format war ended. Neither sees the format as being a particularly smart or far sighted technology.
If the only difference between HD DVD and Blu-ray had been the media system, the war would have ended before it begun.
It's not hard to see why Advanced Content was not accepted - it was a Microsoft proprietary invention, one which was redundant considering Blu Ray already specified a GEM derived multimedia Java profile. It might have proven useful as an intermediate format between HDMV and BD-J but at the end of the day, tools can generate equivalent functionality in Java.
[This is a dupe of above, since I posted it in the wrong subsection.]
As I said, everyone is ragging on each other. Sheesh.
Just a few corrections. Bozster, you have previously claimed to have no agenda, yet you're a totally rude in your response... and still supposed to believe the "no agenda" argument. Most importantly, you ADD to what I said, but don't actually correct or contradict anything (yeah, the BDA was greedy too... too, not *instead of*).
Similarly, Squiggle, I named ONE company that developed AOD. I didn't say Toshiba *alone*. My goal was a quick historical rundown, which I gave. Which is accurate.
Sheesh guys, go home and get a beer (I don't drink and was out surfing instead). The point of HD is for *entertainment* and *enjoyment*, not to be bitter, rag on each other, and complain. Have we really forgotten that?
-Pie
Bozster, if you think that HD DVD had functioning managed copy, then you should post the number of your drug dealer so we can all share in what you're taking. Managed copy was a promised feature that never got anywhere. Not only that, it is controlled by the company that does AACS, not the formats themselves.
Wait a few more months and there should be a multi-disc player which will play blu-ray, hd-dvd and cbhd. Made in China too!
While it's technically easy to do, it's not going to happen. CBHD is being sold to the studios as a format that will never be available anywhere else but China. Licensing (critical to implementation of CBHD's DRM) is going to be impossible to get for companies that build CBHD players for use outside of China.
The funny thing is, if HD DVD had won the format battle, CBHD would be DoA. The only reason it's being backed by Warner is because Warner killed its parent!
Squiggle, China had ALWAYS planned a DVD successor in High Definition. Originally was to be a red laser system (and still may be, since I'm not up on the CBHD tech).
Regardless of who won the format war, the Chinese government would be making their own format.
Claiming that it's BD's fault is totally incorrect.
-Pie
Eating Pie - For someone who's running around complaining everyone's "ragging" on one another, you seem to be picking a lot of unnecessary fights.
I stand by my comment. If you read it, you'll see that the success of CBHD has nothing to do with whether China planned to create it.
You might just as well argue HD DVD is a success because the DVD Forum always intended to create it.
The US is actually a socialist republic.
Only if you take the hyperbole literally.
How ironic, dae ja vou in reverse.
Looks like Warner might be killing off blu ray in China. There is nothing these movie studios wont do to serve their own self indulged needs.