Poll: What's the worst mistake HD channels make?
By Richard Lawler 
posted Aug 9th 2009 12:00PM
posted Aug 9th 2009 12:00PM
posted Aug 9th 2009 12:00PM
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All of these should be treated as a war crime (other than 'Something else').
Seriously, OAR or GTFO.
Worst mistake HD channels make?
A: Fox Widescreen
B: Marking non-HD programming HD in their guide data
C: Cropping/zooming
D: Stretch-o-vision
E: Already letterboxed video in a 4x3 frame
F: Something else
I would say:
"G : ALL OF THE ABOVE"
One of the things that bugs me the most is the broadcast stations that are showing old reruns on the HD channel, but encode the stereo as 5.1 (with center and surround broadcasting nothing) and the black and white time coding at the top of each program. You'd think that they could streatch it just a little so we wouldn't see that anymore. Also, I often see stations that do 4:3 messing with the black level, so that it doesn't match the black bars on the side and you can clearly see a difference.
Cropping makes me furious. What makes me even more furious is that SciFi HD (UK) aired Minority Report a few months back here, in HD. Cropped to 4:3. WHY, GOD, WHY?
Stretching I can cope with - any decent TV has a button to fix that and switch to 4:3, so it's not too bad.
Try fixing TNT or TBS -- their processing stretches the two axes differently, then crops the top and bottom. Cannot undo it with any TV.
Already letterboxed video in a 4:3 frame. Never had any experience with Fox Widescreen
The biggest offense isn't even listed - it's over compression of the channel. Why bother paying for HD when its so blocky with so much mosquito noise that it looks like web video?
The second worst I would say is incorrect OAR.
This is exactly right! Recompressing the signal so that it is a macro-blocked, artifact-filled mess is worse than all of the other problems combined!
I have to say, Fox' 480p "Fox Widescreen" actually looks better than a lot of the 1080i content that I receive, simply because the lower resolution survives the restricted bandwidth with far fewer compression artifacts!
No, it's bad, but at least 95% of the time the picture is OK.
With Stretch-o-vision, the picture is NEVER OK. It's never even close to OK. It is, definitely, the worst thing HD channels do, to the point I'm surprised there's any point in having a poll on it.
Take original 2.2:1 movie
Pan and scan it to 4:3
Stretch-o-vision it to 16:9
W. T. H? How is that right? What possible justification is there for TNT etc doing that to a movie?
An occasional bit of blockiness is no match for the sheer evil that is Stretch-o-vision.
Ding ding ding, Jonny hit the nail right on the head! when I first read this thread, and looking at all the reasons, I was like, how can "compression" not make it on the list. This is absolutely the worst as to what is happening to U.S. hd broadcast at this time. Fix this issue first and we can talk about the rest later.
what about hd channels showing the same thing over and over and over all day every day? i get so tired of the discovery channel and their endless loop of programming. even their commercials do this lol.
What? You don't like watching week-long marathons of Deadliest Catch? Or the endless loop of automotive and racing crap on HDTheatre? Never...
I agree with Jonny, while streching is bad, I sometimes wonder why I am spending good money for bad, chripy, grainy product from some of these stations put out as an excuse for HD.
Personally, I give Fox props for at least TRYING to fill our 16:9 screen unaltered video. That is, even if it's not in HD, it at least doesn't stretch or have black bars. It may not be 720 resolution, but I'm satisfied enough.
If it is SD, shown in original aspect ratio of 16:9, I don't see the beef. Early seasons of 24 were like this. Sure it isn't HD, but they never said it was.
Same. Hell's Kitchen actualy looks so good OTA that I spent a long while researching if it was HD or not, and I'm sorry engadget for posting several times the H.K. was HD, until I found out that it's not. I would much prefer Fox Widescreen to ANY of these options. Letterboxed in a 4:3 frame pisses me off so much. I'm making a TV series into DVDs at my job right now, and I have the "joy" of zooming and cropping out a 16:9 image from this latest series just so that the DVD is native widescreen. Stupid junk!!
-Brian
In addition to complaining to the broadcasters that mangle HD, we should support those that get it right. There's a post on AVSForum, which I can't find at the moment, that categorizes broadcasters by the good (those that always use OAR), the pretty good (those that zoom 2.35:1 to 16:9), and the ugly (stretch-o-vision). USA HD is one of the good guys, for example
What gets me is when a station overlays emergency weather crawlers at the bottom of the screen in 4:3 and causes the whole picture to go 4:3 with short, fat people on the screen.
In my experience, they just kick the HD feed entirely and put up a SD feed instead!
Our local FOX affiliate thinks they need to show us the current time and temp every 30 minutes during primetime television. It's extremely annoying since it takes the image down to 4:3 SD, makes the audio pop, and generally throws things out of sync.
You guys should have had a choice for all of the above. I especially refuse to watch anything with that has any stretch-o-vision.
I have to agree with squiggleslash on this one. Stretch-o-vision is the number one reason many consumers were duped into thinking they were getting HD, thinking if it fills up the shiny, new flatscreen they just purchased, it must be hi-def. It's also the ugliest effect and most noticeable of all the problems listed in this poll, IMO. The very second I see any channel doing this, I immediately point and laugh and turn to a real HD channel to spare my eyes the horror.
All of these are bad, but how about these stations (e.g., Fox) allowing continuous sound dropouts and/or freezing and skipping during a broadcast? And that goes for movies and sports. Do the studio engineers fall asleep while this is happening, or does it have to do with a weak signal coming from the cable company? Whatever the problem, it's VERY annoying to watch Jack Bauer's lips move with no sound as he shouts at a terrorist...then suddenly leap 20 seconds ahead in time to a new scene like Scott Bakula.
I have absolutely no reason why that happens. The weirdest thing I've seen so far, is when I was watching a recorded episode of Law & Order: SVU off NBC, and the audio channel went berserk. The sound effects would play, like doors opening and closing, traffic sounds, but the Dialogue wasn't playing. The characters were talking on the show, but there was no audio! It doesn't make sense that some audio would play, and some wouldn't.
Fox and NBC seem to hire homeless amish people to run their broadcast equipment, because I'm constantly complaining about the audio lag.
I guess this could be Directv's fault, but I doubt it....
This happens on ABC a lot.
"Already letterboxed video in a 4x3 frame"
In my little world, this one drives me nuts. I've this great big TV with 16x9. You want to show me a 16x9 video. You broadcast in 16x9. All the stars have aligned, or so you would think. You then letterbox a 4x3 frame. What??? Please use a small fraction of the viewing area to display something that would perfectly fit the viewing area. Bah!
Fox widescreen, I'm OK with.
I really can't equate HBO "cropping" a 1.85:1 film down to 1.78:1 -- a difference lost in oversan on most sets -- with, say, TNT's non-linear transformations that are so awful that they cannot be simply described.
Nor can I get upset at a station showing a 4:3 movie in pillarbox -- that may be the version they bought for their SD station.
I do get upset at SD presentations of "OAR" content properly letterboxed at, say 2.40:1, when that means that I get about 250 lines of resolution on my HD set. SInce it's my TV that is doing the windowboxing, I won't blame them for that, however lame it is.
HBO cropping "Lawrence of Arabia" down to 16:9 is a crime, but I think stretching "Casablanca" up to 16:9 is worse.
And of course, any station that claims an SD source is HD is a fraud.
All in all though, stretching is the worst.
Oh, trust me, there is something WORSE than stretch-o-vision. It's practiced by IFC and it's non-linear stretch-o-vision. The center 25% or so actually looks almost normal... because the two sides of it are stretched even MORE than a uniform stretching.
Generally speaking, I'm almost OK with a HD channel using an upconvert real widescreen version to show. Almost because the issue there is that takes up a ton more bandwidth than it would on a SD channel.
Some stuff is shown on SD channels letterboxed. This I don't mind TOO much because it's the one candidate from the Zoom function. At least you get a picture that is NOT distorted that does fill your screen... and yes, it is a tad soft... BUT we're talking about SD bandwidth.
BTW, all films have always had a 4:3 version... it's called "Full Screen." It all came about long before widescreen TVs and probably was a reaction to a 1:2.35 movie show OAR taking up about 40% of the screen real estate.
The problem is that there are a LOT of folks who scream and yell about "I spent a ton of money on this widescreen TV and I want EVERYTHING to fill the entire screen."
Not only that, but you can find many even in a place like AVS who MUST set their sets up so ALL SD channels are stretched. Same "I'm not getting what I paid for" mentality.
The problem is that the TNTs of the world have decided to go with this group of idiots.
As for cropping to 16:9 from 1:2.35, there are a lot of movies that only seem to release their stuff to non-theater markets that way. And it may be that is the ONLY version they'll release to any broadcast/cable outlet.
I'll take you that and raise you one more. HGTV. I have a wife, so I get to watch this abomination on a regular basis. Depending on the production company, we get great HD, stretch-o-vision, the non-linear stretch-o-vision (good middle, stretched edges), and one show (My Parent's House) that has gone from regular, to non-linear, to INVERSE non-linear stretch-o-vision! The middle 1/3 of the screen is PINCHED and the edges are approximately OAR (kinda). It's like watching families of pinheads all the time. When they pan over flooring or tile, it's like you're watching on drugs or something.
I'm surprised the crappy deinterlacing of movies isnt an option here. I cant stand the jittery choppy frame drop that happens on a movie when it makes it to the HD channel, while its perfectly smooth on the SD version of that channel. I cant tell if its cox cable, or the channel itself, but some video technician needs to be fired.
I have noticed a very wide range of distortions that fluctuate widely across the spectrum that is effectively attributed to compression. My locals are perfect OTA, through my DISH box and their rebroadcasts are choppy and lots motion noise. As you move to the better channels it gets incrementally better. Then there is HBO that requires their fare to be handled in the best manner that makes a big difference.
So it's only until they all step up or get a clue that broadcasts will be what they can get away with.
One thing that I am finding amazing is the programming that was created in 1999, Nash Bridges for instance, that is HD Widescreen and that which was done lately, Stargate, that isn't.
AND HD channels that profess to be the best, SyFy (pronounced Si(short i)Fee) channel, that show the SD versions, Enterprise, of what HDNET is showing in perfect HDWS. AND how they use the new real estate for the placement of their D.O.G.s. And since many are doubling up on SD and HD in the same transmission the D.O.G.s are in the middle of the screen. Only a saintly few, HDNET, places them faintly out of the way and not all over "my real estate". That really makes me Nutz!
I take it as a indicator as to who is in the biz for real and who is not. Anyone can throw programming on your face. now it's time to step up and present it properly.
Every one complains about HD. However no one says crap about SD standard def. Starz for one looks like crap on my cable system.
I watch HD most of the time but still the compression on non HD channels looks so crappy not wroth watching.
I'm probably one of the very few that had to put up with this, but WCIU in Chicago would occasionally show a show in widescreen and cut off the portion that was past the left side of a 4:3 picture. If that's not annoying enough, they also had a bright blue line where the picture was cut off. I had to zoom the picture and cut off a lot of the rest of the picture it was so annoying. I know it doesn't seem like a good solution because you lose most of the show, but I only saw it on a comedy show where they had a panel sitting around talking, so the picture wasn't really nessicary at all.
CNN International is Stretch-o-vision Central, not sure if it's the same in the US.
It's not.
CNN HS in the US is True HD for everything after 5PM. The CNN Newsroom during the day is SD with CNN designed sidebars.
I applaud "fox widescreen" actually... I watch Hell's Kitchen, and I realize its not true HD resolution, but its true widescreen and proportional.
I'd rather have lower resolution true widescreen than pillar + letter boxing at the same time.
Also, I can't stand non-linear stretching, although 7 years ago I thought i'd be a good idea. Whats good in theory sometimes has a harsh reality.
"Ken" is right, all of the above should be a choice.
HBO doesn't usually crop. Instead they go open matte for most movies. So instead of seeing OAR, you get more picture information on the top and bottom.
The question is 'mistake'. Stretch is NO mistake; just cheap TV Execs.
I absolutely hate it when CBS broadcasts in stereo in my area even though the content is supposed to be 5.1. My receiver can sort of fake it with ProLogic II, but it really irritates me. The content even goes out of its way to show the flashy and shiny "Available in 5.1 surround (where available) logo in the corner.
The thing that bugs me the most is the over-the-top advertising intrusions. I was watching the Lord of the Rings on TNT with "LIMITED COMMERCIAL INTERRUPTIONS". The only problem
with that is that every 10 minutes the star of the show Leverage would repel down in front of the movie with a rope into one of those 5 second commercials that cover the bottom third of the screen. And because of those irritating commercials, I WILL NEVER WATCH THAT SHOW!!! I don't care if that show wins every Emmy award, I will not watch it on principle. Other peeves are upping the volume of commercicals around 25% & the perpetual network logo in the corner.
I bet that if NBC or any other station stopped doing that kind of crap & advertised that fact, they would improve their ratings dramatically.
I have really started to believe that the reason they do it is not to advertise coming shows or their network but to mark their HD programming so that pirates cannot record and then sell it. I'm guessing it is an industry inside standard against piracy. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense to annoy the viewer that much.
The FCC needs to step in an require some disclosure by broadcasters. If they have to say "We are stretching and upconverting SD content to fill your 16x9 screen" consumers will quickly change the channel and the free market will force change.
The poll forgot to mention the sound, clearly no single cable channel offer hd sound or 7.1 Most just plain old 5.1 digital, what make me let down was some hd channel like history, all of their show is still very lame 2.0 stereo.
CNN HD*** lol
@mello one
I totally hear you with the ads and perpetual logos. I love my cartoons, and it's great that Cartoon Network and Disney have finally gone HD, but it's upsetting they feel the need to constantly remind kids about various shows during a broadcast. News flash to CN and Disney XD: though kids have many interests and tend to have short attention spans, it's not SO bad that they need to be reminded to watch their favorite shows. They're well aware of when new episodes of Batman, Spider-Man, Clone Wars, etc. are airing; it's a safe bet they've set the series to record new episodes in the cable box guide.
What's worse is they take up a sizable portion of the lower left or right hand corner of the screen, and the station logos are usually not transparent but big and intrusively colorful. And torrents doen't help because they're part of the broadcast; to see them truly removed, you have to wait for it on DVD/Blu-ray. At least the major networks realized this a while ago and started making their watermarks transparent, but other channels have yet to follow suit.
I think if its not HD, then don't put it on HD channels. Isn't it false advertising???
Some of the HD channels look like they have beer goggles on and then sitting 6 inches away from the screen. Its true HD.
Honestly, to me its just wierd that I could watch a beautiful NFL, MLB, Golf event in 1080 and then get stuck watching the next tv show which makes millions for the company in crap SD stretch, crop, 4x3 junk. I don't even think a show should be allowed to be nominated for an Emmy if you are not in True HD.
Do you guys get that... I'm talkin to you NBC, CBS, Fox, ABC, TNT, TBS, Spike, Comedy... wait this could take all year.
the one I hate the most, and its ugly stretch o vision is history channels insistence on taking SD materiel that they have letterboxed and just stretching it widthwise to fit 16x9, so you have something that looked widescreen, but then gets even wider without removeing those black bars.... you cant fix that with TV settings and I think its just dumb.
Damn you, HGTV! Every time you pan, you make me want to puke!+
Not on the poll, ON-SCREEN-GRAPHICS. Those pop-ups and on screen graphic ads at the bottom of the screen and in the corners with the people dancing around, the next show ads, station identifiers, everything else, they totally suck. Especially when it really is an OAR HD show or movie. The pop-ups ruin everything for me! TNT and TBS are the worst.