Ceton is set to take over the CableCARD PC tuner market
By Ben Drawbaugh 
posted September 11th 2009 3:58PM
posted September 11th 2009 3:58PM
We can't say we saw this coming, but a little technology company we never heard of until CES '09 is going to not only be the first to market with a multi-stream quad tuner CableCARD device, but will probably be the only one for some time. It is for good reason too, as Ceton (pronounced sē-tən or seaten) has been able to pick up where AMD left off with its ATI Digital Cable Tuner for Windows Media Center and improve it in the best way we can think of. This startup seems to have some special sauce that no one else has, we can't even start to think of how hard it would be to decrypt four HD streams at the same time and re-encrypt them at the same time -- and apparently that is just the beginning. We say this because we sat down with Gary Hammer, the president and CEO, and to say he is on the same page with the Media Center market, is an understatement.
Gary came to our meeting with a bunch of tuners including what he calls "the kitchen sink" which is aptly named because it really does just about everything. Of course it is just for testing and won't come to market but it allows Ceton to test just about every configuration you can think of. As we talked about previously, the initial offering will be a quad tuner PCI-E device, but also on the table for the future is an external USB, a low profile PCI-E card with either the CableCARD or the RF input offloaded -- or even both if an OEM was trying to fit it into a small form-factor PC -- four tuners is a good place to start too because the main version of Windows 7 Media Center has a four tuner per type limit. Speaking of types, Gary tells us that it would be possible to offer an ATSC/CableCARD hybrid, if the demand was there -- although he admitted the current designs only had one RF input so something would have to change. Gary explained how Ceton was a technology company who was started about three years ago by some "really smart people" with some "really good ideas," and although the first quad tuner CableCARD tuner will be the initial offering, there are many other solutions currently in testing including one for hotels that will help them make the digital transition. So while AMD paved the way for other companies to produce a digital cable tuner, Ceton's implementation is its own.
No AMD to be found.
Speaking of AMD, we also had a meeting with them today where we asked why AMD seemed to be MIA from the show -- or at least from Microsoft's booth. You see while there is plenty of hardware from partners on display at Microsoft's booth, including Ceton, Hauppauge, and Avermedia, there was no sign of AMD. Don't get us wrong, we can't wait until the new firmware update comes out and adds SDV support and relaxed DRM, but at this point we would be surprised if AMD was actually still making it -- although AMD said it was still in production. At this point it seems that after years and years of investing in the Media Center ecosystem, AMD has had enough and is taking the wait and see approach going forward. When we directly asked them about new tuners, the response was that the lack of OEM requirement news was just announced, and that it would take them some time to respond accordingly. This means it'll be some time though, because we all know that CableLabs certification isn't an overnight process.
Ultimately we really don't care what company produces the products we want, just so long as we get the solution we're looking for -- and we believe that there are plenty of people looking for for a quad CableCARD tuner for their PC, whether they know it or not. We were happy to hear Gary say that he could see a Ceton tuner on the shelf at a big box store one day, and although we still have our reservations, he might have actually convinced us that he can do it. What it'll really come down to though is price, especially with the great foundation that is Windows 7 Media Center. The extenders are still a missing piece from a total solution, but even if Ceton was able to sell a CableCARD tuner to half of Xbox Live Gold subscribers -- since they already own an extender that is connected to the network -- we are still talking millions and millions of customers.
Of course the key is the price -- isn't it always -- and when we asked Gary how much it would be, he asked me how many we wanted. So we said it depended on the price and he said the price depends on how many are ordered. You can see where this went, so after some going back and forth we went with balpark estimate of less than $600, but more than $300. This might seem like too much at first, but not when you consider that four AMD Digital Cable Tuners cost $1200, and you need four CableCARDs instead of one (so rental fees of $12/mo instead of $4). Obviously if a Xbox Live subscriber could just pay $300 for a quad tuner for his Windows 7 PC instead of a TiVo HD at the same price, it is a no brainer, but the amount of volume needed to drive the price down that much seems difficult, at least initially.
For us the price really isn't as important, because dedicated HD geeks like us will pay just about anything for this capability, but what will be more difficult is the wait. Gary says there is still a chance the card will make it to market this year, but officially it is scheduled for early 2010 to ensure Ceton can get off to a good start by delivering on its promisses. Which of course includes producing a product that is rock solid, with the support to go with it. So now we wait.
My local cost for renting an HD-DVR STB from the cable co is $15+. This one card offers as much recording cabability as two STBs and considerably more capability in storage and playback options. A 10 - 20 month break even point is more than acceptable to me.
Ryan, you can't compare this with what you can get form the Cable Co. This works on platform that can do so much more than the DVR you can rent. Until Motorola DVR's can control my lights and DVD/Music streaming then I won't be switching. Not to mention that the interface sucks on those rental dvrs
Good points, but don't stop there: A 7MC machine allocates tuners intelligently based on demand. For example, I have a friend who has a stack of 6 HD DVR tuners in his media rack to service 6 rooms in the house. However, the most he'll ever get from a single room is access to 2 tuners. With 7MC and just one of these cards, he could use 3 tuners in one room (recording 2 shows and watching one) and another room could be using the 4th tuner. Sure, in this scenario, it will be better to have more than 4 tuners, but that's not the point. The point is that in large and small install alike, this is a much more flexible way to distribute tuner resources.
quick fix Ben, last paragraph, "but officially it is scheduled for early 2009"
2010 I would assume...
I've got 3 friends I'll be installing these for once they become available. $350.00 max price.
make it happen!
Good call, thanks.
Less than $600 = $599
Sounds like they have a nice product coming. Not sure I'm quite onboard with the last paragraph as I'm still a bit price sensitive. $300 is getting close to my upper limit for tuners, but I'll take a wait and see approach. Some of my price sensitivity is tied to the relaxation of the DRM.
The next 6 months or so should be pretty interesting. I've love to have this thing available now in time for football and new TV season, but I guess I'll live with my 2 clear QAM and 2 ASTC tuners for a bit longer (and I'll hold the crappy comcast box a bit longer, too..)
This is exactly what the Media Center ecosystem needs! I'd pay $400 for four tuners! Where can I send the check?
I'm not surprised at the cost. From the pictures, it certainly looks like a $400 product.
As far as AMD, recall that they sold their ATI DTV business to Broadcom last year. Most of those involved with ATI OCUR project are no longer with the company.
Cant wait
Are we sure CableCards available now from Time Warner or Comcast will work with the quad device for 4 different feeds, or is a quad M-Card having to be approved and then provided new by the operators? I've been reading up on Comcast M-Cards (multi-stream) and it seems like they do 2 streams which Comcast charges 2x what a normal, I assume single, CableCard add-on costs for the specific reason that it had the capability of two. I've also read varying accounts from $1.79-$7.99 per each of these. Would like to know if/what anyone's currently paying Comcast for an M-Card.
Each local Comcast provider can be different, but the cards all can authorize six streams, and I'm told this has been tested in both Motorola and SA markets.
All M-Cards are capable of decoding up to 6 streams simultaneously. It's just that, until now, there hasn't been a device available to tune more than 2 channels at a time for pushing through an M-Card.
thebasa,
All M-CARDs support decryption on up to six streams. Current CableCard products feature a maximum of two tuners, so that's all we can use today. That's a limitation of existing DVR products; it's not a limitation of M-CARDs.
Comcast does not charge extra for M-CARDs. In fact, M-CARDs are the only CableCards now in production. Production of single-stream CableCards (sometimes referred to as S-CARDs) was discontinued more than a year ago.
Comcast includes one free CableCard with every digital cable tier. You are only charged a CableCard fee if you already have a STB -- you get one free STB or CableCard as part of digital service, not both. If you have both, Comcast *may* charge you $1.50 to $2.85/mo for the CableCard plus a $4-6/mo "secondary outlet" fee.
some comcast system also have a hd cable card fee.
but cable card seems like a dead end any ways no VOD, no ppv, no sports packs (some systems) sdv needs added rented hardware from the cable co.
I don't see where TiVo has any worries, the cost outlay for a Windows Media center are still just too high, even for a home-brew system. In my house we have four TVs, so for a simple four tuner whole house Windows Media set-up, I'd be looking at a minimum of about $2000 (Home-brew Windows Media box about $500, Windows 7 Home Premium $199, tuners at least $300, four Windows extenders $800, running Ethernet to all TVs $200 (since 802.11n won't cut it without drop outs) or add about that same amount for wireless) With 2 TiVo HDs, I could get about the same functionality for about $600 using the existing wiring in my home and the RF Modulator I already have for whole house distribution (which could be replaced for about $200 anyway).
Sure the Windows media layout would be a sweet system, but it is well outside of mine and most people price range.
Isn't this the argument but in reverse that people have been using against devices like the Xbox 360? Sure, you had a lower first buy-in cost, but getting it to the price of the PS3 makes it cheaper over the long run? And the PS3 was considered better by many for having a higer up-front cost.
This time last year I bought a C2Quad Dell with a 500GB HDD on sale for $300, a Blu-ray HD DVD combo drive for $100, and 2 Aver A180s for $70 each - a total of $540. Sure, my up-front cost was a bit more than the $300 for a Tivo HD (cheaper than the $599 Tivo HD XL), but I save money over time since I do not have a monthy subscription fee - $399 for a "lifetime" service that expires when I upgrade. Plus I get a Blu-ray and HD DVD player, as well as other features available to WMC such as using the 360 or Linksys I own as extenders.
Many of those costs you attribute to WMC applies to a Tivo also. If you want extenders with a Tivo (do they have Tivo extenders?), you need to pay for the boxes to extend a Tivo, you need to pay for wiring the house to use an extender for a Tivo since if wireless WMC is useless, then wireless HD on a Tivo would be as useless. If you instead buy seperate Tivos, then you are paying $300 for the lowest price device plus 2X the subscription fees, you need to wirelessly network them, etc.
I will have an additional cost when I buy a cable card tuner, but it is still about the cost of the cheapest Tivo. But it ends up that to get the equivalent of what you laid out in your argument, you are paying about the same, and there is a lot more flexability in WMC.
$100 per tuner is right where I was hoping they would end up; it's a good price point, and is low enough to meet the WAF threshold. Hopefully Ceton manages to keep the price at $399 or less, or offers a 2-tuner option with the ability to upgrade to 4.
The Ceton story is a great on. With each of the other announcements this week, Windows Media Center may have a life yet. :-)
With AMD/ATI out of the picture, where in the world will the long anticipated ATI CableCARD turner firmware update come from? Two to four weeks, based on what? Right now, since we do not have Ceton cards, the firmware upgrade it critical. The lack of real information on this topic very frustrating (but normal).
I agree that $399 or less for the 4-tuner option will make this a winner. They really need to get a cheaper 2-tuner option out for people if they want it to move beyond us TV geeks.
Ben, did you sniff around the Hauppauge and Avermedia equipment? Are they coming to market w/ CableCARD soultions too? Thx -
I'm ready for Ceton if they're not, although some competition might drive prices downward. What was it AMD wanted so desparately to see you about then if not a new MOCUR, that Matrox-ish 6 display thing?
Hauppauge to Sell CableCard Tuners by End of 2009
http://www.gearlog.com/2009/09/hauppauge_to_sell_cablecard_tu.php
I agree. The main pricing challenge Mr. Ceton is up against is making sure the card is less expensive than the PC. Now that the OEM requirement is lifted, people are going to be able to purchase ample power for HD HTPCs for relatively little cost. I'd bet that you could do it now for less than $600 (tuner excluded), but haven't done the math.
Yeah, AMD's equivalent may be more expensive now, but they are operating in a competitive vacuum. Once that changes, their price will drop. I bought my last AMD DCT for $199 new.
SIGN ME UP! I'll be buying a tuner ( or more ) the first day available for my home built HTPC. If this thing is on the horizon, I'll wait for it.
The OEM cable card PC's scared the heck out of me. There was no way I was dumping all that cash down a hole that Cable Labs could kill at any moment.
"so rental fees of $12/mo instead of $4"
Rental fees are all over the map.
When I was in a Comcast region, the deal was $0 for the first card, $2 for each additional. For whatever reason, they didn't charge me for any of my 3 cards. Also, cable-cos will hit folks with 'additional outlet' fees which may go as high as equal the number of cards, for another $6 or $7/month. (Though, again, that too varies widely by region.)
Right now I pay $2 per card ($6 total) and 1 additional outlet fee of $6.
Thank you Ben. Great post.
Price is not a problem for me.
I already have an HTPC, an Xbox 360 and CAT5 to every room. Dropping $300 for this tuner for hella flexibility, storage-wise and customization solutions...that's cheap. But...here is my prob (I'm sure alot of peep's too).
As soon as Ben wrote the last article about ATI DCT (Thanks again) and DIY HTPC. I slapped down $250 for an ATI DCT from ebay, patched OSFR table and SLIC my bios just to find out Time Warner (San Antonio) doesn't support one way devices. WTF!. As far as tru2way and SDV Tuner Adapter is no where on their time table for a release date. WTF again!
Talk about all dressed up but no party to go to. Bummer!
The operator is not complying with the "spirit" of the CableCARD requirements so I'd suggest you report them to the FCC since you don't have all the channels you pay for. As part of the remediation process you can say that you want a TA and with any luck a little pressure from the FCC will get them motivated.
I think getting CableCARD implementations into the hands of consumers rather than restricting them to OEMs is great, but am I missing something with regard to the number of tuners? Is it really necessary to have 6 tuners? Most of the time I have enough trouble finding ONE show I want to watch on TV at any given time. I can't imagine wanting to watch something and needing to record 5 other shows at the same time.
Also, does anyone know whether those additional tuners will be available to Extender devices, i.e. whether those additional tuners can only be used to record other channels simultaneously or whether 6 people could be watching 6 channels on 6 Extenders simultaneously, all through this card?
I think the 6 tuner cards are really for the custom installers of high end systems, as Windows 7 only allows up to 4 tuners per type on a PC. So you could only use 4 CableCard tuners per install. You could also get 4 clear QAM digital tuners (only unencrypted channels...which are generally limited to local stations on most cable systems), and 4 ATSC OTA tuners, and 4 analog tuners. But you couldn't run 6 CableCard tuners on a single box without having the special setups limited to installers.
One possible use of a 6 tuner OCUR would be as a network device where different PCs around the house all are assigned tuners.
But the reason you want a bunch of tuners is partly due to your other question about extenders. These tuners do work with the extenders, so you could have three or four live TV streams running to extenders/TVs around the house and still be recording a show or two, all at the same time. Probably not going to matter if it's just a person in the household, but I don't want to have to fight for tuners against a kid trying to watch icarly or other crap. :)
Asked in the 'oem' story, but didn't see a reply... Do we know if this does anything for non MS Media center systems? I'd love to be able to chuck one of these into my sage system and get rid of the thee hauppauge hd pvr boxes and 3 rental set top boxes!
I for one.. been wanting this solution for over 2 years now. I currently have a cable box and a ota antenna on a ati 650pcie combo tuner. I like it but I need more HD content. With this baby, i will then buy me a new computer (the kids can get my current one) and good bye to the cable box and ati 650 tuner. I will also save more money cause i will get rid of my main living 8300 SA dvr. So in theory i would save on two cable boxes one of them dvr and just renting a Mcard. I should save around 6x2(cable boxes)=12 +15(dvr service)+ taxes. So close to 30$ a month. So if i can buy it for 300$ for 4 tuners, i would buy it in a heart beat. Even at 400$ i would also get it. It will pay itself in 1 year.
John, Yes the 6 streams are available as record or live tv on extenders, or recording 6 while watching those 6 channels live on extenders (or local obviously).
Mi, Currently only Media Center has been designed to support CableCARD tuners. There are many requirements someone like Sage would have to adhere to in order to be supported including a CableLabs approved DRM system.
Jeremy Hammer
VP Systems Integration
Ceton Corporation
Jeremy (brother of Gary?), I take it you've known about the lifting of the OEM restriction for a while?
I realize this product is not even to market yet but has Ceton considered making an extender device to?
One thing that worries me, on that low profile card you can see part of it sticking up over the bracket. Seems like that could be a problem in some cases. I'm thinking of getting an Antec Micro Fusion and from pictures it looks like there might be enough room over the slots, but I'm not totally sure.
"For us the price really isn't as important, because dedicated HD geeks like us will pay just about anything for this capability"
Shhhh Ben!!!!!!!
All this excitement about CableCard on the eve of the tru2way release.
What am I missing?
Tru2way is about brining guide data and VOD to 3rd party devices. Media Center has its own guide data and VOD is a loss. The problem is that to MS it is just too much work to implement an entire Java OCAP stack just to provide someone else's VOD. And besides, if the MC market ever gets big enough the bi-directional CableCARD PC standard might actually take off and bring VOD to market anyways.
So in other words, tru2way is for TVs, and maybe DVRs, but not Media Centers.
Ben, yeah but the problem with that for the moment is that you can't handle SDV without an external box, basically a small STB with a bunch more cables hanging outside your 7MC solution. And it doesn't sound like the tuning adapters are very reliable right at the moment, assuming of course that you can even get one from your cable co. Given how much trouble it is getting a cable card install from your cable company, how much do you want to bet on that as part of your solution?
Sure, I can live without VOD. There's always over the top video streaming etc. But without SDV, if you're a Time Warner subscriber...
Chris, Actually I am Gary's son. I have known that the OEM restriction being lifted has been a work in progress for a while now and knew that it would happen eventually, if not the exact date. We have been advocating it for a while now. Yes we have considered making an extender and still may do so but not until after our MOCUR is released.
Andrew, yes the card does extend above the official low profile size for a PCIe device. Unfortunately the CableCARD by itself is the size of the official low profile PCIe backplate height, and then we have to get an F-connector on there and some LEDs (two leds are required by CableLabs). We have been able to get it in some slimline cases but we have not tried the particular one you mentioned.
Jeremy,
Could you please take a measurement on how high the card extends beyond the low profile bracket? I have the same case that Andrew commented on and would like to know if it will fit too. Thanks!
The issue is not the height of the actual card, it is the height of the backplate. In order for the card to fit in a case it has to have a backplate that is the correct height, and in a low profile scenario it is just too short, we cannot get a CableCARD and F-Connector on it.
Here is a picture showing what I am talking about. Sorry for the poor quality, it was taken with my phone:
http://www.cetoncorp.com/images/low_profile_backplate.png
As you can see the CableCARD takes up the entire height of the backplate, leaving no room for the F-Connector. If someone has a suggestion about how to solve this I would love to hear it. Unfortunately we are just limited on space.
Re: Low profile bracket
Hi, Jeremy. Have you considered two low profile brackets? The F connector can be on a separate bracket. In this case it'll be more convenient to make the cable detachable.
Marv,
That is exactly one of the scenarios mentioned in my meeting with Ceton. You could also build the CableCARD and F-Type connector into the side of your case, or maybe the F-Type in the back and the CableCARD in the front to be like a STB.
Marv, yes that is one option we have considered, although more likely we would put the CableCARD in a slot next to it instead of the F Connector. We have thought of a few others but there just doesn't seem to be a GOOD solution (in this case I define "good" as not taking up more than one slot, staying low profile and not requiring custom case design). If all else fails we can fall back on a two slot design with some kind of SLI style connection between them or something, I just don't like it :(
If it is possible to separate the card reader from the tuner it would be good to be able locate the reader in either a 3.5" internal/external bay or a low profile slot.
Jeremy, have you tried the new CableCard from Evolution Broadband? It tends to be a tight fit in most STBs.
This is a great Article! Oh the media server I will be building... *giddy*
I am in for 1 lets do a group buy
It wouldn't let me reply on the little thread we had going there for some reason, so I'm replying as a global comment.
DonTHB, I will have to check on this again but I'm pretty sure we are required to make the CableCARD accessible from the outside. It's been a while since I have thoroughly gone over that part of the specs so I will check again but I'm pretty sure.
AC, We have not yet but we will very soon. I am not sure why it would be slightly larger than the others since it is a standard PCMCIA card form factor and is required to meet that specification. Although the spec has a tolerance and it may just be on the big side of the tolerance. Are you in an area that uses Evolution Broadband CableCARDs? If so, where are you located?
An external box which can later be installed internally by the PC owner would work? If the box was designed to also be mounted reversed in a drive bay this would allow it to be situated in an internal or external bay. The reader could also be removed from the box and mounted in a slot.
It's to bad that the wired version of PCIe isn't available on any platform. It would provide the flexibility of USB or 1394.