A first hand look at SDV and Copy Freely support in Windows 7 Media Center
By Ben Drawbaugh 
posted Sep 24th 2009 11:00AM
posted Sep 24th 2009 11:00AM
If you have a ATI Digital Cable Tuner connected to your Windows Media Center then you've been waiting a long time for a firmware update. In fact, although updates were released fairly steadily during the first year of the product's life, the last update (1.17.1) was dated April 30th 2008. But this long delay has been particularly painful because this is the first update since CableLabs relaxed the DRM requirements last Summer -- it's also the very same update Microsoft has been touting since CEDIA 2008. So what took so long? We'd like to know, but one thing is for sure, CableLabs sure took its time in the approval process as the date on the firmware is May 1st 2009! Better late then never, so while you wait for the public release click through to find out what all the fuss is about.
What's new in firmware 1.19.12?
The first of two improvements is the fact that if the cable provider marks a program as Copy Freely, then there is NO DRM on your recording. And secondly support was added for Cisco and Motorola Tuning Adapters -- requires Windows 7, but does add support for channels delivered via SDV. The first one applies to everyone and will be a big deal for most, but if SDV has been eating through your HD offerings, then both couldn't get here fast enough.
Copy Freely vs Copy Once
Unlike TiVo or any other CableCARD device up until now, if you recorded your favorite HD show with an ATI Digital Cable Tuner in Windows Media Center, it was all locked down. This meant that if you had to reinstall Windows, the recordings were useless. This meant if you wanted to watch a show on another PC, you couldn't. This meant you couldn't convert the recording and play recordings on your iPod. And finally this meant you couldn't even use something like Show Analyzer to scan the show for commercials so that they could be skipped automatically. So yeah, it sucked. The good news is that after you install this update, going forward any show that has a Copy Control Information (CCI) byte of Copy Freely, will be free from just about any restriction. This is just like HD TiVos that have TiVoToGo and Multi-Room Viewing for two years, and it's about time. The bad news is that if something is marked anything else, like Copy Once, then you're still out of luck, and you can't even make the one copy that the name implies.
In our experience this update works as advertised, sometimes. We say sometimes because like any TiVo owner will tell you, it depends on your provider. While FiOS marks almost everything Copy Freely, Bright House Networks and Time Warner Cable don't, in fact the only thing in the clear on some networks are the over-the-air broadcast networks. What is even more confusing is this can vary market by market, so just because TWC in your market marks everything Copy Once doesn't mean TWC in the next town over will. So it really does depend on your provider, but why? We asked a few in the industry and the bottom line is that it depends on the terms of the contract with the content holders. As to why TWC would agree to this while FiOS doesn't, who really knows. But if you live somewhere with real cable competition it might be worth looking into.
With the new firmware applied, this all works behind the scene from a user's perspective -- in fact you'd be hard pressed to tell which shows were and weren't free of DRM until you try to play it on another machine, or you dig into the recording's details. You can also go into the DCT's web configuration page and check the DRM tab for Encryption Status, but that isn't something most will ever do.
We have to admit that while we never really felt like the DRM was that inhibiting, we find that just the knowledge that we're free to enjoy the shows we recorded however we want is very refreshing. So far we've yet to convert even one show for our iPod, but just knowing we can is a pretty cool feeling -- and skipping commercials automatically is of course really sweet.
Tuning Adapter and Switch Digital Video
This new feature is once again only useful depending on your provider. So for a provider like FiOS who doesn't use SDV, it is useless, but for those that deploy almost all of their HD channels via SDV, this can be a life saver.
The way this works is that you request a Tuning Adapter (TA) from your cable provider and connect it to a free USB port on your Media Center -- this can of course be a USB hub. The device is also connected to the coax cable -- there is an RF coax pass through, although we'd recommend you skip it and use a high quality splitter -- and then activated by your cable company. From here, Windows 7 Media Center and your Digital Cable Tuner do the rest -- this does require 7 because there is extra code to help the two devices find each other. What the TA actually does is talk upstream on behalf of the tuner. So to break it down -- a channel delivered via SDV is only broadcast when someone is actually watching it, so the tuner has to have some way to let the headend know someone wants to watch said channel and then wait to learn which frequency will be used. Then in turn, the TA notifies the tuner which frequency is being used and the rest happens as normal. The good news is that it does work, the bad news is that a TA can be as big as a set-top-box and requires its own power. This issue gets worse as you add tuners too because a Cisco TA can only handle two tuners. So if you did happen to have a new Ceton quad CableCARD tuner, you'd need two -- we are told that Motorola TAs can handle all four, so lucky for those people. ATI Digital Cable Tuner owners aren't as lucky though, so if you have two DCTs, you'll need two TAs.
As you might imagine our experience with the Tuning Adapter wasn't as easy or seamless. First we had to find someone at our local Bright House Network office that actually knew what it was -- thanks Bill! Then once the trucked rolled to the house and installed it, we found out that there was a $4 per month charge for a device that only enabled access to eight HD channels that we didn't even realize we were missing -- so yeah, nothing we couldn't live without. To top it off, the Cisco TA is pretty big (pictured above) and doesn't power on automatically -- in other words if you don't have it plugged into a UPS, when the power comes back on you have to turn it back on manually before your scheduled recordings will succeed. Speaking of not working, when things don't work you really have no idea why, basically you are presented with a black screen as if the channel didn't exist. We're not sure why Microsoft couldn't add a nice "this channel can't be found, maybe you need a Tuning Adapter or call your provider," but whatever at least it works.
The bottom line is it's all good
Ultimately these two new additions are pretty big in the world of premium HD recordings on a Windows Media Center, and we wouldn't hesitate to install it -- whenever it's finally released. It is one of the best updates we've received via firmware in recent memory -- at least in regards to our home theater. We believe that there are people who've been waiting for these before jumping into a PC Digital Cable Tuner. So considering this news and the lack of an OEM requirement that is coming, Digital Cable Tuners for Media Center should become much more popular. Just as soon as they come down in price that is.
It should be noted that the firmware isn't publicly available yet, but we're told it'll show up on Windows Update when it's available.
Ben, does this mean that with say, Ceton's 4 tuner Cablecard device setup on my living room HTPC, I will be able to watch live and recorded TV on another HTPC in the house that has no Cablecard tuner connected locally?
As in, can I share a Cablecard tuner on my network between 3 HTPCs? I have no desire to get an Xbox 360 or any extender. (Lack of codecs).
No it doesn't. There is no way to have Live TV on a HTPC without having a tuner connected to it. And CableCARD tuners are all PCI or USB so the cable would have to run into each PC where you can watch live TV. You can share the recorded shows between HTPCs though.
MythTV ftw!
Sorry... Couldn't resist.
Just went to the ATI driver download site - the latest firmware is still April 2008! Where is it?
The firmware isn't out yet, but when it is it'll show up on Windows Update. In fact I don't think it'll even be on ATI's site, but I could be wrong about that.
Ben, do you think that there will be codec support in Windows 7 Media center to enable playback of .mkv and .m2ts on extenders? If that were the case, a 360 could be in my future.
For starters those are both containers and not codecs so they can easily be played on extenders with the right splitter installed on the Media Center.
But even better is that it is now possible to change the container of a mkv file to wtv which makes it play back perfectly on Media Center and Extenders. The conversion is very fast because there is no transcoding. In fact it is is as fast as a file copy, which is essentially what it is.
@ Ben:
Many thanks. (My bad for calling mkv and m2ts codecs, bad habit) I'm new to MCE. In fact, my decision to use Media Center was because of the elimination of the OEM requirement for Cablecard. can you point to a how-to page for converting mkv to wtv? Also, can you change m2ts into wtv? Thanks again.
BEn can you explain the transcoding between mkv and wtv a bit more
Well the tool is still in beta so you can only get it by contributing to the MC community or paying a fee.
http://babgvant.com/Wiki/view.aspx/Early_Access
It might also work on m2ts, I'm not sure because I haven't tried it.
The real problem with the wtv container compared to mkv is the lack of support for DTS and for subtitles (not to be confused with closed captions which are supported).
Emiliano,
It isn't transcoding.
Basically the latest beta version of todvrms can convert just about any container with H.264 and AC3 into a wtv file. You just download it (early access required) and run.
d:\todvrms.exe d:\MyFavoriteMovie-H.264-AC3.mkv d:\MyFavoriteMovie-H.264-AC3.wtv -wtv
And it creates a new wtv file with the movie in it. Takes as long as a file copy.
M2TS is supported with the MPC-HC mpeg splitter. It's included in the DVRMSToolbox install, or you can get if from the standalone filters zip on sourceforge.
Ben I remember you saying subtitles are hard but is is there no way to easily take a subtitle file and "transcoded" it to CCs?
I'm told it is theoretically possible, but I don't know of a utility that does it.
"There is no way to have Live TV on a HTPC without having a tuner connected to it."
Ben, you're just talking about VMC/7MC here, correct? :-D
PF
So true about VMC/7MC. You could always try the USB over IP solutions out there to share a USB Cablecard Tuner. Unless I'm remembering Ben say in a past Podcast that approach wouldn't work. Can't remember for sure.
Actually I'm talking about CableCARD tuner. Obviously the HDHomeRun does this and works with just about every DVR software including MC.
Actually I was referring to the CableCard tuner as well. There have been successful experiments using USB over IP software sharing out regular USB TV Tuners with Vista Media Center from one PC over to another on the network. I'd be curious if this approach worked with the ATI USB CableCard Tuner.
Do you know if the new OCUR firmware will also allow programs tagged as "copy freely" to be recorded without DRM in Vista Media Center?
Any possibility these drivers might be available from another source (e.g. ATI's website) before appearing on Windows Update?
Yes my understanding is it works in Windows Vista too as long as you have the TV Pack. I believe the problem is that Vista without TV Pack doesn't support PlayReady which is the new DRM used with this version of the firmware.
Not sure where it'll pop up first, but you can bet we'll let you know just as soon as we find out.
Ben,
Did the one Cisco 1520 work for two ATI Tuners?
Also have you received that sample Ceton PCIe x1 4-tuner card sample you asked for at CEDIA? Would love to see your screen shots with set-up along with the TA.
Out here TW doesn't charge for TA, and they don't install them. You pick them up and it's up to you to install it. I have one standing by for MC and one running on a TIVO so I need to know if I need to pick up another one.
Thanks
John
Yes, you only need one Cisco TA for two ATI tuners, but I haven't tested this since my two test machines are both single tuner boxes.
No, I haven't received a sample of the Ceton, but I'm sure the setup is just next next next. I'll cover it as soon as I can though.
Ben, thanks for writing this up and keeping the MC faithful up-to-date.
Ben is THE SOURCE for all relevant media center news.
I can't believe I'm actually thinking about paying for digital cable after all the news that came from CEDIA. It looks like Ceton has a great product based on what I've seen and this firmware update along with the OEM PC requirement lifted actually make a DCT a worthwhile product. It only took two years but such is life when dealing with cablelabs.
The Ceton tuner claims it's ready for SDV. When I first read that, I was thinking 'ready' as in "no tuning adapter required for SDV." Now I'm thinking that means, "Ceton tuner is ready to work with a tuning adapter." So with the ATI firmware update, Ceton and ATI CableCARD tuners are equally 'ready' for SDV?
Can I get confirmation/clarification on this?
Right, just like the ATI DCT, the Ceton needs a Tuning Adapter to work with SDV. You can actually see the TA tab on the Ceton config webpage.
http://www.engadgethd.com/photos/hands-on-with-the-ceton-cablecard-tuner/2272671/
All good news. Just need to wait for MS to support content protection from windows computer to windows computer..... I'm not buying anymore extenders
This is great! I have two DCT's and i'm anxiously awaiting this firmware update!! Thanks for the preview Ben!
I'm curious how long it will take someone to hack the tuning adapter and offer something you can just install on your Win7 box to talk upstream to the CableCo so we don't need a stupid external TA. the one I have for my TivoHD is a piece of shit. Works great for a few days then stops showing channels, even non-SDV ones until it forces the Tivo to reboot, usually when it's recording a show (like tonight with Bones)
I think you're a little too naive. You need a reverse path for SDV to work. That would require tru2way or some 2 way protocol. SDV is a two way protocol and it would require new tuners to work with it. You can't access SDV with a 1 way protocol. The TA will have to be used until they figure out the 2 way CC PC protocol. It might require tru2way but then you wont need a TA since the reverse path transmitter can help. Even DSG would be nice but it might be a while for this to happen.
i'm suprised they would charge a monthly fee for SDV adapters. You are freeing up their bandwidth by doing this, so they should be paying you!
GREAT job Ben
has there been any word on when the MS tool would be released to analyse your system and let you add your own cablecard?
Why use cable anyway? If you're in a major center, or even close to one, stick any old UHF antenna up in the air and get all the networks in HD for free, totally unencumbered with DRM or anything. Record, watch, stream, save to DVD, whatever the heck you want to do with it! I get 25 HD channels here in Toronto. Lots to watch on my Hauppauge PVR.
For premium HD channels. I have two ATSC tuners and two clear QAM tuners in my 7MC box, but have kept my crappy Comcast DVR exclusively for recording stuff on FX, ESPN, HBO, etc.
I'll be happy when Sons of Anarchy will be recorded on the 7MC box with the rest of my main shows.
Sounds good, makes me wish I didn't have Uverse. I really miss my MCE setup.
i cant wait for this, sounds pretty awesome. if only comcast would get the cable card in my DCT working, its only been a month now so i think i still have a while to go.
Ben, I assume that copy protected files also still can't be played on other 7MC PCs in the same homegroup? Only extenders still?
Time Warner SoCal enabled Copy Protection for EVERY SINGLE CHANNEL a couple months ago, rendering my TivoToGo absolutely worthless. It used to be that I would copy shows onto my iPhone and watch them on the my train rides ever day to and from work, but not any more - everything I record has a red cross next to it (I also lost the ability to transfer shows from one Tivo to another, which REALLY pisses me off).
I've called Time Warner to bitch them out, but they don't care, and I don't have any alternatives, save satellite (ugh).
Firmware update via Microsoft Update. I am not sure I understand how this can work. Will MIcrosoft Update scan your computer to see if you have CableCARD tuners?
Since Firmware upgrades are not a standard upgrade, but something a user has to participate in, how can this be done via MS Update.
I can understand a message from MS that says, "If you have ATI CableCARDs go to this location and download the firmware."
What am I missing?
Windows Update basically checks for software on your computer and then runs installers. So just like it can install an update for Outlook if it is installed, it can detect that you are using a DCT. Then it will just run the utility to update the firmware.
It could also download the update for you and then tell you to run it manually.
In the case of the version I was given. I went to device manager and updated the driver and the firmware update utility ran and updated it. But I was specifically told that this will NOT be the user's experience so don't mention it in my coverage.
Are we going to get a guide? You make updating and setting all this up sound pretty ugly. Also, do we at least have a general idea of the release date? I'm hoping for no later than sometime in October. is that a realistic expectation?
The public installer isn't done yet so I can't do a guide. Even the one they gave me was pretty easy so I'd bet the public one will be even easier. As for when, they keep saying two weeks, but I'd expect it before Windows 7 on Oct 22nd.
i know this isnt the best place to ask this but is work progressing on your profile for converting mkv's to dvr-ms (and hopefully wtv). I personally use your profile all the time to convert my mkv's (for the transport controls) but am hoping the wtv version will be coming along as well.
Ive tried andy's tool and while nice is not as "complete" as yours imo.... esp with the subtitles and automatic dts to ac3 conversion. I would like to see your profile updated to wtv and if video is not in the correct format (because not all h.264 is created the same) then it could run a transcode on it.
The TV profile is already done, but the movie process still needs work. If you want subtitles you still have to re-encode and the first version won't determine if the h.264 video is compatible, but that is something we'd like to add.
Hate to be the grammar police, but it's "better late THAN never"- never thought Valley Girl speak would proliferate to staff writers.
I've got Windows 7. I've got an ATI TV Wonder Digital Cable Tuner. I've got COX HD service and a CableCard. I've got a Cisco STA-1520. But I can get the new firmware and I can't find a driver for the Cisco anywhere either. Is there any way to get a hold of the new firmware and a driver for the Cisco so I can start using this?
Really, is there any way the firmware and driver can be shared, even if they are just listed as BETA? I'd really like to start using this and watching the channels that are quickly disappearing as they become converted to SDV.
Thanks,
Joel
The software is out of beta, its just that the installer isn't done yet. It should be out between now and the next 20 days.
I'm really confused why you would suggest that someone use a splitter instead of the pass through. That would cause 3.5 dB of loss which could be enough to cause issues with your signal depending on what your dB is at the TA. Whereas the pass through would at most be a loss of .5 dB if that...
Also I'd love to hear what you consider a "high quality" splitter...