Ask Engadget HD: Is it (still) a good time to buy a TiVo?
By Richard Lawler 
posted October 29th 2009 2:40PM
posted October 29th 2009 2:40PM
"Moving into a new place in a couple of weeks, and while I haven't decided between cable, satellite or FiOS for my TV, I figure part of the decision is how I want to set up my DVR. I've had a regular one from Time Warner for the last few years, but I had a TiVo before that and I'm itching to go back. Media Center seems awfully complicated to set up and I'm not sure what other options there are and which one if the best value, what's your suggestion?"
It's been a while since we took on the soul-wrenching question of the TiVo, and a year later with Series4 boxes hopefully just around the corner it's time to confront the beast once again. Whether you have a TiVo or chose to go in another direction, the date has changed but the question is the same, is this still a great time to buy one?
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If you are looking for something in the next few weeks, then you have to go with what is available now. I think there are 2 reasonable options for you:
A) If DirectTV is an option, I think it is confirmed that a new Tivo for DirectTV is coming out next year. It is also speculated that Tivo may introduce new hardware next year for cable/fios. Or if you are thinking about cable and HTPC then you will probably want to wait for the upcoming cablecard tuners from Ceton. If you are interested in any of these solutions, then you may just want to rent a DVR from your provider for a while (assuming you are not locked into a contract) and see what options become available next year.
B) The Tivo HD may not be cutting edge anymore, but it is still a very capable and full-featured DVR. If you are happy with cable or fios, and with the features of the Tivo HD, then you might consider just buying a Tivo now and avoid wasting any money renting a DVR from your provider. With Tivo I think you are locked in for a min 1-year commitment, after that you can cancel service and sell the box if you see something that you like better.
Just got the TiVo HD in January and I have to say I'm loving it. Hands down better than any Cable Company box I've ever had.
I'm not one to act on speculation. If there isn't strong evidence to support something is coming then I'm not going to wait around. So I would get the TiVo.
It's also worth noting that the TiVo boxes aren't compatible with satellite (Except the DirecTiVo). So if your going satellite TiVo is out of the question.
TrueEddie, My Series 1 stand alone TiVo, with a cheap lifetime subscription, is completely compatible with my stand alone DirecTV box. The TiVo remote talks to the TiVo which then tells the DirecTV box what channels to tune. in
Correct. The proper statement is that if you want to record more than one channel at a time, or want HD recordings, then Tivo isn't going to work for you if you have Satellite.
Windows Media Center >>>> TiVo. Case closed.
Agreed.
Build a media center pc for $600-800 and you are set. Plus you can do so much more with it than just watch and record TV.
I third this sentiment. W7MC all the way :)
http://www.rgbfilter.com/?p=1652
I went on the cheap an picked up an ASRock ION 330, and it does everything. Ad a Hauppauge external dual tuner, and you can do it all.
Windows 7 Media Center is so far beyond every other settop solution out there. All it needs for a complete media solution is to get a Boxee add-in to launch from MC, and possibly a Zune software add-in, to get some of that Smart DJ stuff happening for when hosting parties.
But do you get all the channels with a media center pc for $600? TW has a ton of sdv now, does that factor in? In other words can you just plug in a coax cable and start recording all the channels I have now?
If you only have one TV then it is hard to beat a TiVo HD based on price and features, but if you have two TVs or more and wired Ethernet, Windows 7 Media Center makes more sense. It is more maintenance though and that isn't something everyone wants to deal with.
Although Windows Media Center is currently the best option in regards to UI and features, I look forward to see if anything new that leverages MoCA will bring in the next year or so.
Its not that simple.
A dual core Atom 330 box with Ion CANNOT handle full screen HQ (480p) flash playback if your desktop resolution is even 720p. Which you're going to want to use of course. Unless you want to wait for sometime next year when Adobe says they're going to update flash to allow GPU offloading. If you're buying something before then, I'd stick to ULV's and above. Not Atom.
Plus a Media Center PC will NOT support satellite of course. And if you want to hook it up to cable, you'll need internal expansion. If you don't have internal expansion you'll need to buy one of the about-to-be-discontinued ATI Wonder external cable card tuners. Since they only handle single stream cable cards, you'll need TWO. At $250 each, that's another $500 on top of the cost of your PC. And of course you can't build this yet. While you're supposed to be able to build your own Cable Card PC in the near future, you can't do it yet. The tuners you'll need (Ceton say) aren't shipping yet. And you'll need a reasonable PCIe slot to put this card in, which once again rules out those little Atom NetTops. So you're talking about a $500+ PC, probably in something at least as big as a Shuttle. Want it super quiet? Spend more money. Want an IR or Bluetooth keyboard and mouse/trackpad? More money.
Etc. Get the idea?
Now you've got a PC. Yes it'll be able to record and playback TV programs. And order movies from Netflix, Amazon, etc. But you can do those with a Tivo. Sure it'll cost you $12.95/month for the Tivo. Many people find that unacceptable. But its WAY easier.
The PC will be able to play stuff from Hulu and torrents and Blu-Ray (for more money). Tivo can do the torrent thing (via Tivo Desktop) but not the other two.
@FanFoot:
The added costs aren't quite that high... I have a dual tuner (digital & analogue, 2 tuners each) and a 500GB HD. That's all I needed to buy to use MCE. Of course, I have a 360 that I use as an extender, so I don't have to have my PC in the same room - size and noise aren't constraints. You can build your own small, quiet PC for
It's all about cost here... can you afford to buy a TiVo box WITHOUT adding to existing credit card debt. If you can't say yes, then go ahead and keep renting from the cable company for now.
I've been with TiVo since 2001. That dvr is still running with a lifetime subscription at a friends ( 1 harddrive replacement). I now have 2 HD units. But, since I also have a windows machine next to the TV. If I was starting over it would be a tough call. Win7 media center is very nice. Only time will tell if the user installed cablecards will work as advertised.
The only "problem" I have with my TiVo HD is the smallish hard drive. If I was buying today, I'd definitely get the XL, or check out the offerings at weaknees.com
Just go to weaknees. Its generally cheaper than buying the same size drive upgrade from Tivo. And they offer the same "as new" warranty as Tivo. Never had a problem with them.
You can also get an eSATA expansion drive (WD "MyDVR" 500GB & 1TB) for S3 & TiVoHD for pretty cheap, to get more storage for your unit.
My advice is to buy a used TiVo HD or series 3 with a lifetime subscription still attached. Once you own it for more than two years, it ends up being cheaper than any cable DVRs or media center PC, plus you can always resell it in the future.
I don't know how people continue to pay monthly TiVo fees.
DTVPal DRV for the win!
DTVPal DVR is a very basic DVR and supports OTA only. It is not comparable to a Tivo at all.
Well I wouldn't trade my DTVPal + Popcorn Hour for all the TiVo + Cable in the world.
Cancelling cable a year ago was the best descion I ever made
With all the problems I've heard of people having with the DTVPal DVRs, and the fact that the firmware releases so far don't seem to have cured them, I couldn't in good conscience buy one for or recommend one to my parents. Also, if you want to record from analog or digital cable, or analog OTA (yes Virginia, there still are analog OTA stations - see LPTV/class-A/translator stations), the DTVPal is a bit constricting. I love me some TiVo - I have a Series3, and I couldn't be happier. It really does "just work".
Media Center's Guide and scheduling is free - no contest.
That's not a valid decision criteria. Cost of Media Center PC + dual cablecard tuners > Cost of Tivo + prepaid lifetime service.
@ chumley: The price of a media PC including the CableCARD would probably cost about 40%-50% more, but that price differential is shrinking all the time (and probably moreso in the new year).
Given what you get OUT of a Media PC as opposed to a Tivo, I'd go Media PC.
After all, at least $400 of the price of the Media PC isn't being spent on a service that could go dark.
Sorry but 'lifetime service' deals never seem like a good deal to me.
If you have the cash to buy a tivo then go for it. Otherwise no. And for those who think the whole "tivo pays for itself" works out, that's ridiculous. It takes a couple years for what you paid for the tivo to come back to you. Not only that but it comes back in at 2 dollar increments. In the grand scheme of things when you "make your money back" in two years, was it really worth it?
I say go cable and see what happens. SDV makes tivo a pain more than it's worth and a HTPC is worse than that. I'm not saying it's reallllly difficult but the other options aren't a better deal to me whn a cable box is only another $2 more than a tivo every month.
Not to mention the nightmare when your tivo doesn't work. Cable says it's tivo's fault. Tivo says it's cables fault.
"In the grand scheme of things when you "make your money back" in two years, was it really worth it?"
Imho, yes it is. With Tivo you also got to enjoy a better DVR for the 2-3 years it takes to break even. I think it really depends on whether you can afford the upfront investment in Tivo. As blackacex2 said, if you don' t have the money for Tivo, then just rent.
What makes it better? If you don't have an unlimited netflix subscription, that's out. The whole "intelligent recording" is a joke because it still ends the recording as a program is scheduled. If south park goes until 10:30 and 10 seconds you miss the last 10 seconds whether you use a cable dvr or tivo. Sure you can set tivo to record an extra minute but my cable dvr does that too. Or 5 minutes, or an hour or whatever.
But to shell out 300-500 bucks for a dvr is a lot of money. Oh and on top of that you will pay $3 a month plus your tivo subscription because you need to rent a cable card.
I had my tivo for 10 days before I decided to return it. Eight of those ten days I was waiting for tivo to do something my current dvr didn't. And not having a stop button on the remote relly ticked me off, idk why.
@Matt:
What's the difference? Reliability. Both SA and Moto DVRs are well known for a slew of problems - not recording shows that they're scheduled to, randomly recording shows they weren't, and just general crazy antics. I've read too many stories of people taking back these DVRs to their cable provider to have them replaced due to these sorts of issues, only to run into the same thing with the next, and the next, and the next. My TiVo is exceedingly reliable - it records what it's told, when it's told (barring guide data oddities, but it does the best it can with what it's given). If you record very little, you might never notice - I have 60+ Season Passes on my TiVo, though, so it's recording quite often (not to mention suggestion recordings as well).
Yes, there are documented hardware failures, TiVo isn't perfect, but on the whole it's a lot better than the competition. IMO totally worth the extra cost (and i say this as someone who paid full original price for a Series3 3 years ago when it was brand-new).
@ Matt: Cablecard rental fees are provider dependent. Sometimes there is a fee, sometimes there is not. Comcast, for example, normally provides one cablecard per digital outlet for no additional fee.
As far at what makes Tivo "better", it is generally regarded as being more reliable at recording your scheduled programs. It is also generally regarded as having a better/easier UI. And it has added features that a rental DVR does not, such as the ability to transfer recordings to/from a PC, wishlists & suggestions to help you find programming, etc. How about a simple thing like removing channels that you don't want from the Guide? Can your cable-supplied DVR do that? My understanding is that most can not.
If you don't care about these differences, and granted some people don't, then a rental DVR is probably a better solution for you. I'm not arguing that Tivo is perfect or is best for everyone. It is certainly not. But it can still be a great solution for people who appreciate what it has to offer.
For the SDV issue, TiVo officially supports the use of "tuning resolvers" (basically a USB device that does the upstream end of channel changing the way the cable companies' units do) that solve this.
I still don't see why anyone woud ever pay for a TiVo when they can get (pretty much) the same thing cheaper from their provider.
I used to have dish and I loved their DVR.
I now have Comcast, and I am not fond of the DVR but...it did not cost anything out of pocket, and the HD DVR is 8.95 a month for me, and records the shows I want.
I really do not understand why Tivo is still around.
Your Comcast HD DVR is not $8.95 per month. You are also paying an additional "HDTV" fee for an HD-capable box. That fee is generally about $8/mo, so you are probably paying $16.95+taxes per month to rent that HD DVR from Comcast. With Tivo you do not pay that additional HDTV fee. Tivo is the cheaper solution in the long term if you can afford to pay for it up front:
Cost of Comcast DRV rental for 3 years: $17 x 36 = $612
Cost of Tivo HD + 3 years service: $250 + $299 = $549
I would go so far to say most people don't have money to buy a tivo and even less have the money to buy it AND a long term subscription. So the cost of tivo actually breaks down:
12.95 for tivo service PLUS $2-$5 to rent a cable card = about $17 a month.
Hell, that's a bad deal for a cable compay dvr, let alone a dvr you shelled out $300 for.
As pointed out by others, your cableco DVR isn't the sweet deal it looks like; there is the increased box fee for the DVR box, DVR service fees, and other assorted fees tacked on that increase the price, which they don't mention in their marketing materials. Also, from everything I've read to date, the reliability of the cableco DVRs is often not the best - there's no guarantee that that new episode of House you scheduled to record will actually be there when you decide you want to watch it. If that's not a big deal to you, more power to you - but then why worry about a DVR in the first place if you don't really care whether you see the show or not?
I don't consider a cable co DVR and a TiVo to be "pretty much the same thing" Anyone person I have ever talked to that has had both has always spoken about how much better the TiVo is in terms of flexibility, scheduling and just pure easy of use. I myself had a cable co DVR for a 2nd bedroom, I couldn't stand the thing, slow, no good way to skip commericals, loud and to hot to be in an entertainment center. My TiVo HD has none of those problems, I've had it for 3-4 years now and I still love it.
@Matt:
"12.95 for tivo service PLUS $2-$5 to rent a cable card = about $17 a month."
You resort to a worst-case example in your effort to argue that Tivo is bad, so you are showing a bias here. The reality is that cablecard rental often costs $0-2/month, it just depends on the service provider. If someone has a service provider that charges $5/mo for cablecard rental (which is rare), than Tivo may not be cost effective for them. Fine. That doesn't mean that Tivo can't be a good solution for someone else.
Sorry chumley, but I looked at my bill and for the HD DVR I pay $4.99 a month. No other fees. I am on a 12 month promotion at that price. After that I will call and get another promotion. If anyone is paying $17 a month call them, they always have promotions.
So three years cost if you take 5 minutes to ask for a promotion:
Comcast: ($4.99 x 12) = $59.88 For chumley's sake let's say ($17.00 x 24) = $408.00
Total Comcast = $467.88
TiVo (using the numbers above) = $549.00
Oh, and when the new DVR boxes are released, I walk mine right into Comcast and exchange it with a new one.
Dish Network was even lower in cost.
Comcast charges $11.95 for the DVR, then $5 for the HD "functionality" to the DVR typically. People over at AVS are paying a total of almost $17 a month when taxes are figured in.
Yay you for getting a promotion, but that doesn't really can't be used to factor into the cost as promotions vary and a lot of people may not be able to even get them.
That said, I couldn't live without my TiVo. I've expanded it to well over 1T by simply plugging in an external drive I picked up at Best Buy. I love the UI, I love the guide data, I love everything about it.
If all you care about is recording and watching television (and maybe Netflix), then the core functionality of the TiVo is still very competitive. The TiVo's upconverted SD UI shows its age, but the box remains an excellent "toaster" for TV recording and playback. If you want to access PC videos and music, then Windows Media Center offers advantages that the aging TiVo hardware cannot match.
The TivoHD and DirecTV DVRs are based on the latest Broadcom SoC from early 2007, but that 300MHz CPU is clearly showing its age. It was never intended to support more than an upconverted SD UI, and it will never *natively* support popular Internet video codecs such as XVID and DIVX. It was not designed with multi-room in mind, so network throughput is limited.
For TiVo to be competitive with Media Center moving forward, it needs a design refresh based on a modern Broadcom SoC. The new and upcoming Broadcom SoCs feature 2-3x the performance to support high-definition UIs, 4+ tuners, whole-house DVR functionality (think multiple extenders), high-speed networking via the existing coax in the home with MoCA, 1080p60 upconversion, and more PC video codecs.
Looking forward, it's simply unrealistic to expect a 2006-2007 DVR hardware platform with a 300MHz CPU and limited 2D graphics capability to match all the bells and whistles of the latest PCs running Windows Media Center 7. But if all you want is TV recording and playback, then TiVo still does that well with an intuitive interface. Despite its age, it's still a significant upgrade over the the vast majority of cable DVRs (some cable DVRs like the Motorola DCX have newer hardware, but no new software to take advantage of it).
To me it really depends on the amount of TV you are recording. TiVo HD is a breeze to upgrade. I currently have the ability to record approx. 290 hours of HD (2800 hours SD).
If you are only going to record 30-40 hours of TV, then Comcast or whichever provider's DVR is fine.
I also have a Windows 7 Media Center which I love except for the fact it can't take a cable card, so the only HD I get is Over the Air. (There is an expensive hack out there).
With all that said, when the new Ceton tuners come out and are working well, I will be going exclusively Media Center for two reasons. Number of recordings is limited to how ever many hard drives I want to put in and I can extend the media center around the house.
I have a Series2 and a DVR from the cable company doesn't even compare. The remote is easy, the UI is easy. My grandma can use TiVo. Yes the cable company DVRs do the same things but looking at 8-bit fonts and graphics are silly and ugly to me. The cable company remotes are ugly and laid out stupidly, IMO. I dont want to pay extra for HDTV so I got regular cable and a Series2. The box was $99 2-3 years ago and I can get at least $25 if I sold it today. Well worth it.
That is why I have Harmony Remote's so my grandparents and todler can use them easily.
DirectTV, Tivo, Comcast???
You guys do realize that Dish Network has the best DVR's, right?
I've tried a number of solutions, and have owned various Tivo models over the years, but in the end, I keep coming back to Tivo-- which is the best DVR on the market, despite some criticisms I have with the current model.
Just some background. Tivo models, I've owned... Series 1, 2, and 3 (HD). I have a Windows media center PC. And I've used DVRs from Scientific Atlantic and Motorola from my cable company.
If you want to schedule multiple recordings concurrently, watching another program you're not recording, schedule an entire series that intelligently knows about time/day changes, searching for programs to record, setting up list of programs you want to record should they ever appear, recording similiar programs you might like (space provided)... I think Tivo hands down has the best software solution. I like that you can schedule recordings remotely. And I also appreciate that when new channels are added, the Tivo alerts you to the change. On the current model, there's an option to add more hard drive space (externally via a third party), which if you're recording HD you want as much hard drive space as possible.
That you can watch Netflix, Amazon, or other content on the Tivo has never really been a selling point for me. You can also load programs on/off your Tivo thorugh the use of external software, but I found it more cumbersome and time consuming than it's worth. If you have more than one Tivo in the same location, you can transfer programs between the systems, however assuming the program does have a DRM flag preventing such an option (It's hit and miss what does/does not).
Media Center is a relatively easy to setup and use solution, but it's also somewhat of a basic offering, that while it does offer primarily DVR features, doesn't seem as mature as the Tivo offering in the way of total features. It's basically one step up from what a cable company might offer.
I've used both SD and HD versions of Scientific Atlantic DVRs and they are among the absolutely worst I've encountered. There's really too many issues to recount. It is among the most unintelligent solution available, although perhaps they've improved since I've last used one, I was unimpressed with my last experience from about a year ago. I can't even begin to recall how many programs it did not record correctly, because the show moved around. It's among the most basic of the DVRs I've used.
If I had any complaints about Tivo, it would be price, price of subscriptoin, and that the current models use cable card, which are more difficult to setup than you would think. Mine took several days to configure before I had working units. Also using cable cards means no on demand capability.
In an ideal world, Tivo software would be used by any cable company in their set top box. I know Comcast was pursuing it at one time, but it's not available in my area.
In the end, for me at least, using Tivo, going away from it, taught me that Tivo has the best software, and that returning to it reminded me how great it was.
We have a Series 3 HD (just bleeding edge fools here) and two HD-Tivos, as we can't bear to watch TV without Tivo... so many friends have converted to Tivo from other DVRs... I really don't think there is an equal to them. Of course things may change in future, but right now they continue to be the most polished.
I have a TiVo Series 3 and a Media Center PC that I just moved from Vista (yes- it worked fine thank you very much) to Win7.
While I agree with many posters that no one has it quite right, at this point my personal take is: if you just want to record/watch TV in the living room and the Wife Acceptance Factor is high on your list of criteria- then TiVo is the winner. The OS is more stable, the interface is easier to figure out for the non-techie, and it just plain works.
If you want to run music/video off a central PC/Server to multiple locations around the house- then Media Center works better. TiVo just isn't set up to do that, so it's pretty poor at it. That said, I don't like it as much for TV viewing due to the interference I get from various messages about updates, virus scans, etc. Windows 7 is better, but they're still there.
In the end- I'd prefer the network functions of Windows with the stability and ease-of-use of TiVo. I keep hoping.
W7MC > Moxi > Tivo?
why are we asking if we should get TiVo?
Moxi is more powerful and versatile machine with no monthly fees.
Go get a Moxi!!
Moxi "has no monthly fee" because you pay for it up front. Tivo gives you that option as well, it's called "product lifetime service". Lack of recurring fees is not a valid reason to choose Moxi over Tivo. There are other tradeoffs and differences between Moxi and Tivo that should be considered. There is a good comparison matrix posted on avsforum for anyone who is interested.
Note also that the future of the Moxi standalone DVR product is uncertain at this time, since the company was recently bought out.
There's also the fact that the Moxi is pretty limited in terms of what it can record - out of the box, the only thing it can record is digital cable. That may sound sufficient, unless you're on a cable system where many SD channels are still analog. They'll send you a (single tuner) USB analog dongle, but you still can't record any OTA programming with it - you're 100% tied to cable. You can still use a TiVo HD with OTA, if you get tired of paying for cable, or just have to move and can't get cable immediately, or whatever. Also, you have to have cable Internet service to get guide data; I know it seems antiquated, but you can still hook a TiVo up to the phone line for getting guide data (obviously you won't be watching YouTube or downloading Amazon VOD, but in a pinch, it works).
Don't get me wrong, the Moxi seems like an interesting unit, but the device they ended up releasing is pretty narrow in terms of potential market, especially at the $800 price point it still sits at.
I think that another thing to consider is whether or not a cable TV subscription is even necessary. Before DVRs, only having five or six channels was pretty lousy, but now that you can time shift shows, that's still 10 - 20 good programs each week. Even if you throw in a $9.99 Netflix subscription and 5 - 10 Amazon VOD's each month, you're still paying half of what cable costs and still have the internet for anything you missed.