Well we have to say we never saw this coming, but have dreamed of it for years, but it appears that
the FCC is actually listening to the CEA and is asking for comments on how to replace
CableCARD with something that would actually make the network open. For those just catching up, Congress mandated that cable had to be open with the Telecommunications Act of 1996 -- yeah that long -- and 3rd party CableCARD devices first became available in 2004 and five years later there are only 14 3rd party certified devices and
443k 3rd party devices in service. The fact that CableCARDs
just don't work is no surprise to anyone who has tried to use one -- ok we're exaggerating here, but we've had our fair share installed and every one makes for a funny story. Now obviously admitting you have a problem is the first step, but it also means we are years away from a solution. But since they asked, here's ours. Instead of silly cards and middleware, just specify a two way communications protocol and embed signed certificates that CableLabs will control the distribution of in the box for authentication and encryption. It really doesn't have to be any harder than that.
posted December 4th 2009 3:52PM
@(Unverified)
I think most of us see the point, but don't expect the FCC or CableLabs to do anything more convenient for customers. Not only that, but even IF they come up with something, the rollout won't go smooth, they'll force us to buy new hardware, it probably will only work on a new operating system, and the cable companies will fight it every step of the way.
Besides that, what seems more likely for the cable cos to do is to lobby to drop the requirement entirely, and just stick to their boxes.
@jhoff80
Since this is all a direct result of a act of congress, it would take the same to roll it all back. So what do you think is more likely? That Obama's FCC comish will force a consumer friendly solution on cable operators, or that the cable operators will successfully lobby congress to repeal the law?
@(Unverified)
Well, we don't necessarily need cable cards, but, for DRM purposes, it'd still be a good idea to have a smart card slot. Just look at the satellite TV companies like Dish or DirecTV. Their encryption system has been broken several times, and to secure it again, they just need to release new smart cards, rather than change out all the receivers.
@(Unverified)
I like Obama, don't get me wrong... but he doesn't exactly have much of a track record for forcing much, even the kinds of regulation that would help Americans and that a majority of Americans support (cough) healthcare, regulating the financial sector, etc. (cough) when faced with millions and millions of dollars of lobbyist money buying off half of Congress.
I'd be very concerned about CableCard going away with no alternatives, personally.
@(Unverified)
The point of the hardware token is to handle the decryption of the signal in secret while preventing people from pirating cable.
Software-based security wouldn't be able to protect the decryption keys for the signal.
Cable companies don't send unique video signals to every single household - and so if the decryption keys are able to be copied, then there would be no limit to the number of TVs that can watch for free.
The reason software tokens work for browsers is that they solve a very different security problem.
@skim
I understand that cable is broadcast so it isn't exactly the same as say SSL. What I meant was that the certificate would be used to prove that the device was certified to communicate on the network, and then the headend could share the encryption key. So the cert would be used for authentication and the initiation encryption, but not the stream encryption itself. This way the cable operator could change the keys as needed.
As for the smart card that sat uses, this really isn't necessary since that is a solution for a one way medium, and cable is two-way, and thus inherently more secure.
It would also be harder to crack then say AACS, since that is an offline technology which gives the attacker an unlimited time to crack the keys and no real way to retroactively revoke the keys.
@BenD
Registering a certificate with the cable co works for cable modems (MAC address).
"The fact that CableCARDs just don't work is no surprise to anyone who has tried to use one -- ok we're exaggerating here, but we've had our fair share installed and every one makes for a funny story"
It would be nice if you focused less on funny stories and more on accurate reporting.
Every M CableCARD that I have used has been free of problems. Many of the S cards were bad but that was a few years ago. CableCARDs are great, it's the 2-way support and idiot installers that are the problem.
The failings were not only technical. For most of the 00's, the FCC was hardly on the side of consumers (draw your own conclusions as to why). They botched the DTV changeover, too. When people are paying $190 (!) for 17 home shopping channels, is it really any surprise that others are tempted to steal their cable? In an ideal world, we'd be able to choose our own channels a-la-carte by now.
I had very few problems with my CableCard though it isn't 2-way. Though, I agree the card is so 1990's thinking and what we need is a virtual certification method so we can sign onto our cable subscription no matter what the device...TV, PC, iPhone, Droid, etc...
So what, are consumers going to be effed over now that interesting CableCARD tech (Ceton tuner, WMC updates for SDV/DRM) is finally coming about? That would just figure. Right about the time CableCARD could take off (or at least increase usage), the FCC declares it a failure, and now there's probably very little chance people buy these products. Wonderful. I wonder if that statement was put out at the behest of the cable operators who would love to see it go away.
Also, did they ever examine why there are so few products? Why the testing is so stringent and lengthy? Why the costs are so high for a product that is essentially a decryption/encryption product? Perhaps CableLabs made the barrier to entry so high and so difficult to overcome that potential products were discouraged from the market. Perhaps the Cable Cos didn't train their employees properly in supporting the technology so that it would appear to SUCK to consumers and fall out of favor quickly.
To which I say, simply: "No shit."
One question: How does this effect my TiVo?? Will I have to buy new equipment in the next few years because CableCARD is no more?
@(Unverified) Pretty much.
@(Unverified) how does it affect your Tivo? it doesn't right now. we'll still have to deal with the Cable co's treating us like 2nd class citizens.
I love my cable card and Comcast hates me for having one ( they tried telling they didn't have any when I first asked for one ).
Cable cards are used in most cable companies big DVR's. That's ironic. :)
I think it would be a mistake to ditch cable cards now. I'm surprised tru2way wasn't talked about. If tru2way actually shows up and works it should be a big upgrade. tru2way still needs to use cable cards and since June 1st 2007 all of the new cable boxes for the cable companies have to use cable cards. I'm sure they don't want to ditch all the new boxes they had to upgrade.
With TWC in Lincon, their cable boxes have multistream CableCards (M Cards) yet I still can't lease one over 2 years later for my Tivo HD. TWC talking an extra $2.54 from me every month because they are lazy didn't seem fair so I filled an FCC complaint. That got their attention so they called to tell me they ordered the M cards. To bad I'm probably going to use my TiVo OTA together w/ Netflix and Hulu and save $60 bucks a month.
ttttttthhhhhhhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
One issue with cable TV is that the set-top boxes are now fundamentally different than they were before digital TV.
Prior to digital TV, a set-top box would take garbled NTSC TV signals in and then output a clean NTSC TV signal. This worked fine with Tivos and everything else because every device and TV understood NTSC TV signals. The only difficulty was making the set-top box change channels, for those boxes that didn't do channel-block degarbling. This problem was generally solved by IR blasters.
Now, with digital TV, the set-top box takes in a compressed, encrypted digital stream and then outputs an uncompressed, DRM-ed digital stream. Typically, the stream in is ATSC/QAM, while the stream out is HDMI. While your Tivo or TV can take in ATSC/QAM unencrypted streams, that's not what a set-top box puts out. It takes a serious piece of hardware to take an HDMI stream and turn it back into ATSC.
But there's no technical reason that cable boxes couldn't just take in encrypted ATSC/QAM and output unencrypted ATSC/QAM. The reason it cannot be done is DRM and that fact that content providers would go nuts if their streams went unencrypted.
It seems that what is needed is a ATSC/QAM coaxial interface that provides HDCP between boxes. This way, the set-top box would take in the cable's encrypted ATSC signal and decrypt it according to the subscriber's plan, but then instead of outputting an uncompressed TV signal, it could output an encrypted ATSC signal that is DRM-ed between the set-top box and the next unit (whether it be a Tivo or the TV itself, or a PC, or whatever). So whereas before, boxes and TVs were passing around NTSC signals, now all boxes and TV's would pass around ATSC signals (with the proper encryption for each link).
Of course, given that the "serious hardware" I mentioned above that is needed to recompress HDMI TV signals will eventually become cheap & commodity, perhaps that will provide the answer. The next Tivo or Media Center PC or whatever will simply suck in HDMI from the set-top box, then compress and process that as it wishes. Problem solved. Sort of. Except for the ugly fact that you still need a bunch of set-top boxes (1 for each stream you want to decode simultaneously).
@CityZen
It would not be beneficial to anyone to recompress or to simply remodulate the signal before it leaves the STB just so you can capture it with a PC or DVR again.
This wouldn't solve anything. The problem is that the Digital Cable Tuner requirements aren't open and don't promote inovation, and sure some of this has to do with DRM, but not most of it.
Most people will tell you the reason they don't use a TiVo HD is because of the upfront cost of the box and the lack of VOD support. In fact I don't think I've ever heard someone say they don't want one because of DRM.
Lets hope they make this whole thing simpler, not more complicated by recompresssing or remodulating signals.
@(Unverified)
You're missing a point. It is because of DRM issues (and other issues) that it is difficult to make something like the HD Tivo that works with digital cable TV. Presently, the only boxes that work properly with digital cable TV are the cable TV companies' boxes. And in itself, that is not particularly a problem. The problem I addressed is the fact that you cannot easily chain a Tivo-like device off of the cable company box.
The FCC's attempt at a solution was to make it "easy" for other companies to produce a replacement for the cable company box. However, this didn't work, since by the time a standard came out, the cable companies had already moved on to technologies that made the standard obsolete.
So I was proposing an alternate solution path that would still involve the cable company box, but make it reasonably possible for other devices to work with the output of said box.
@CityZen
The whole point is to get rid of the extra box and the complexity, not to add more boxes are go back to the way we used to do it. You are just looking at the analog solution and trying to apply it to the digital world, which in this case doesn't work.
DRM does contribute to the problem, but only because the cable co' doesn't want to let go of the keys. DRM is used in iTunes and other online services and doesn't get in the way of inovation etc and isn't very expensive to implement. The fact is that CableLabs' solution is expensive to implement and just doesn't work that go and even if you got rid of the DRM, this wouldn't make it much cheaper, easier or better.
No the DRM isn't the problem here, but the solution is.
its atleast a win on paper. watch your tv from a computer and not deal with a shitty box.
I must be pretty lucky. I recently moved, signed up with Comcast (the only "choice" available) and bought a Tivo HD. I went to the Comcast office got an M-card, took it home, and plugged it into the Tivo. I then followed the onscreen prompts from Tivo which involved calling a Comcast number to finish activation. Once that was done, it just worked. I was surprised at how easy it was.
Not saying that others haven't had problems, but its not all a stinking pile out there either.
There is only thing that sucks more than cable cards: cable boxes...
Happily enjoying Moxi with TWC MCard for the past three months. Even happier not shelling out monthly cable box and remote fees. What more can one ask for?
I don't care about cable cards anymore. DVRs are almost obsolete. It's pretty ridiculous to have to buy/rent a computer with a hard drive (DVR) to try to capture a TV show that's broadcast at a particular time and store it for later use. Let's just live with the DVRs that we have and continue to move toward on demand internet streaming model without any cable cards or DVRs. Any TV show or movie any time you want it. There's no way Cable Labs or CEA can some up with a better standard and get it deployed before the on demand internet streaming model becomes ubiquitous.
Yeah I seen this one coming for a while, too much like the cards used in laptops LOL but seriously Ben is right, there needs to be a two-way communication signal of some sort whether it be a cable, a box, or other peripheral design to make cable more competitive. If not, I don't see cable service add-ons working at all, and that will mean more for satellite b/c they have proven themselves already with the bandwidth of HD w/o without a card. That's why we and my dad pay for satellite, mainly for the convenience.
So what does this mean exactly? I'm just waiting on a few more Black Friday components before I can build my new (and first) HTPC. I was really looking forward to getting the new Ceton quad tuner card when it comes out in the Spring, but is that even going to be a good idea now? I've been wanting to dump my COX DVR box for a while, but now I'm wondering if I shouldn't just get a different tuner card (and maybe a tuning adapter if needed for SDV) and try to stream everything else... This is also my first foray into WMC so it's a little overwhelming. I'm still not quite sure how everything works together, but I want to get started on the right foot so I don't have to change gears soon after.
The problem with cable card was the support of the cable companies. I remember when cables cards became available, and attempting to get one from the cable company was like pulling teeth. They told me they didn't offer it, they tried to talk me out it, told me that only an authorized technician could install them so that it carried an extra change (which ended up being little more than installing the card and calling the company to activate it). I've never once seen or received a cable card in a package. It's always loose, and half of them when installed did not work. It took days for the cable company to program. And I can't receive any on demand content. My only frustration with cable card is that it's the only interface for Tivo HD. Had it not been for Tivo, I would have never put up with cable card for as long as I have. That being said, I really wish you didn't have to obtain a converter from the cable company. They really really try to lock you in to their equipment, which is inferior. I would be ESASTATIC if I could buy a TIVO that had a built into converter that worked with any cable company.
does this mean that just when we are about to get a viable cable card solution (early next year right?) they are going to change the standard and screw us over again?
So now that they declare it a failure, can MSO's start deploying new cablecard less boxes, like the inexpensive Motorola DCT-700, saving costs but yet more features than a cheap DTA?
Tru2Way should fix some of it. Here's a Tru2Way install from a Chicago test market on a Panasonic TV, complete with screen shots:
http://www.cabletechs.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=159:tru2way-betas&catid=40:trouble-calls-and-installs&Itemid=65
Motorola and Scientific Atlanta are just as much to blame for the cable cards not working as the cable companies.
Strange that the long term goal of the cable industry is ready to move to "downloadable security," right when the FCC decides cablecards don't work.